Friday, November 14, 2008

Amway's Facts

These numbers were taken from the Amway/Quixtar website. I believe the numbers speak for themselves.

The Average Monthly Gross Income for “Active” IBOs was $115

60 comments:

mike said...

Although that is considered the gross income. I just wonder what the average expenses are to get that $115.

Tex said...

The above includes inactive IBO's.

Also, if you ever paid attention to the marketing plan, most IBO's haven't done much, so why should they get paid much?

Click on my name for the tool scam facts.

Joecool said...

Tex, quixtar/amway doesn;t count the "inactive" IBOs when stating that gross income, thus the real "average" income is probably more like $70 or so. A better measure would be to to show the median income, but that might not be so flattering tothose who are promoting the business.

Gina said...

Wow, IBO's will believe anything, spin or outright lie as long as it is from the corp. Anyone else says something regarding the opportunity and they want links, facts, no he said or she said...interesting. How come they don't ask for proof from their precious corp? So the corp was required to make this very clear statement but if course to not loose face they put a spin on it and with out so much of a blink of the eye, IBO's have sunk into it completely. Freaky

rlaurens said...

That average is not fair....

It includes hard working IBO that works their butt off for many years and never get anywhere near $115/mo. :)

Joecool said...

The master spin doctor likes to say things like $115 is a great income form someone who simply asks his brother if he wants to buy something. You need to move at least 100 PV to earn that quixtar income. And frankly, if we're talking averages, then the likes of Britt and other crown types probably drive up that average.

What many spin doctors don't mention is that Quixtar apparently already disregards IBOs they consider "inactive" when they came up with the average.

tex said...

I was mistaken in my previous comment.

However, do you realize how low the bar is to be counted as "active?"

It's like running the hurdles in track with the hurdles 2" high.

Therefore, the average includes many IBO's who are just above fogging up a mirror.

On qblog recently, it was noted most IBO's are "2's". This means the average IBO isn't, by definition, making much money. You can't have it both ways.

Click on my name for the tool scam facts.

Joecool said...

Tex, you're mistaken about a lot of things.

The bar might be low, but an IBO still have to move 100 PV to get a bonus/rebate from Amway/Quixtar.

So the argument of the bar being low holds little water.

tex said...

jc, I'm mistaken about very few things, and am not afraid to admit the extremely rare cases when I am. You, on the other hand, are often mistaken/confused.

“Active” means an IBO attempted to:

1. make a retail sale, OR

2. presented the Independent Business Ownership Plan, OR

3. received bonus money, OR

4. attended a company or IBO meeting.

Pick any ONE of the above, and you are considered "active."

For example, let's say you try to make a single retail sale, are unsuccessful, never present the Plan, never receive any bonus money, or never attend a single meeting for an entire year, you are still considered "active." Or pick any ONE of the others, such as never attempt a retail sale, show the Plan a single time, but never receive any bonus money or never attend a single meeting for an entire year, you are still considered "active."

However, ALL of the above IBO's ARE part of the average income calculation.

I think they should raise the bar.

Between this VERY low threshold and most of the IBO's are "2's", I would be shocked if the "average" was higher than $115/month.

Also, an IBO does NOT need to move 100 PV to get a bonus/rebate from Amway, unless you mean their GROUP must move 100 PV.

Click on my name for the tool scam facts.

Joecool said...

Tex, aside from #3, how does quixtar know whether an IBO attempted to make a sale or attended a meeting?

Aside from #3, can you earn a bonus doin #1, #2< or #4? No, you can't.

It is my opinion that the "median" income is probably less than $36 a month.

Gina said...

I can't imagine that the corp didn't want that average number to be as realistic but as high as possible, so I bet that they used the kingpins and other higher ups in that average....despite that they don't make their money from actually being an IBO. So JC is most likely correct, the actual average is probably lower in reality. That is just basic marketing. Of course, the corp needed to address the conflict with that $115 a month to "you can make so much" garbage....hence the spin.

The real difference is that critics question the number that Amway/Quixtar itself presents as fact while IBO's present nothing factual to dispute their corp's fact. Someone is being a little dishonest here...the corp or the IBO's?????

mike said...

Regardless of what one considers as an active Amway salesperson, $115 per month on the average is not much.

tex said...

Tex, aside from #3, how does quixtar know whether an IBO attempted to make a sale or attended a meeting? ---- Hey, I thought this was an Amway Global blog? Answer: they don't, I believe the figures are based on a telephone survey. I wouldn't be surprised if more people said they did some of these things than actually did them, making the real percentage of "active" even lower.

Aside from #3, can you earn a bonus doin #1, #2< or #4? No, you can't. ---- That's right, but you are still counted as "active." That's MY point, jc. There are MANY IBO's doing activities that don't directly earn a bonus, but they are counted as "active" anyway. Shall we lower the hurdles to 1"?

It is my opinion that the "median" income is probably less than $36 a month. ---- It's my opinion the median income is as meaningless as the average income with the current definition of "active."

Click on my name for the tool scam facts.

Joecool said...

Tex, you're showing ignorance (again). The median income would be a good way of portraying what's more likely as the top earners and lowere end IBOs would not be counted.

The reality is that the most common experience is an IBO doing 100 PV and having no downline as depicted in the plan that many show. That would mean the experience of many if not most IBOs would be $8 monthly income from quixtar.

As Mike said, even if you toss out more of the IBOs who did very little, the average is still going to be unimpressive.

tex said...

Gina,

If Amway wants a higher number, they should use higher standards to define "active." I am in favor of raising the standards, as it would exclude a good many current "mirror foggers" who drag the number down.

Why would you NOT use the higher level IBO's in the average?

The much bigger, and not addressed issue, is the profit (for the LCK's) and loss (for most IBO's) the tool scam represents. This is where the lies (you call it spin) come from.

I can get close to the $115/month using publicly available and estimated numbers, such as $360 million/year IBO profit (publicly available), 400,000 IBO's (estimated from various sources, such as North America having about 1/7 the global volume, and 3 million IBO's worldwide), 2/3 active (publicly available). Why would you state Amway is lying?

Mike,

Would you attend one meeting once a year for $115/month?

jc,

You have no idea whether the median would be higher or lower than the average, it depends on the distribution of profit/IBO. I don't consider knowing the median any more beneficial than the average, and also don't consider the median to be "more likely", as it doesn't take into account how long the IBO has been an IBO or the level of effort, both of which are important when looking at the average or median, and would be much more meaningful in the absence of the tool scam, of course.

You need to brush up on your statistics and logic, because you're demonstrating a high level of lack of both (again).

You're trying to do the equivalent of saying something green is heavy.

Click on my name for the tool scam facts.

Joecool said...

Tex, use your brain man. Do you think the corporation wouldn't use whichever number looks more favorable? That's likely why the median income is not used. Think about it, in the plan, the majority of IBOs are "2s". Thus the majority would receive $8 a month from the corporation. Duh.
Wrong again tex.


You know, like not stopping the tools scam makes their bottom line look better?

Tex said...

jc, use your brain man.

Do you think the corporation wouldn't use whichever number looks more favorable? ---- No, because most people don't know the difference between an average and a median. A MUCH more favorable number would result by "raising the bar", not bickering over using average versus median.

That's likely why the median income is not used. ---- See above.

Think about it, in the plan, the majority of IBOs are "2s". Thus the majority would receive $8 a month from the corporation. Duh.
Wrong again tex. ---- Then why are you surprised the average is $115? Duh. Wrong again jc.

You know, like not stopping the tools scam makes their bottom line look better? ---- ???

Click on my name for the tool scam facts.

Joecool said...

Tex, if you remove the crown ambassadors and other big pins, and remove the do nothing IBOs, guess what? The remaining IBOs will probably average $30 a month. The majority will be $8 a month and the platinums pulling up the average. The vast majority of IBOs are below platinum, or probably, below 300 PV.

You know, like not stopping the tools scam makes their bottom line look better? ---- ???

Do you think the corporation makes more money off system dedicated IBOs or not?

Tex said...

jc,

I'm not disagreeing with the result of using the median, I am disagreeing with it making any sense, for the reasons I listed above.

Do you think the corporation makes more money off system dedicated IBOs or not? ---- No doubt from system dedicated IBO's, there's a lot more of them. But Amway has also been stagnant for a very long time, and the internet appears to be informing more prospects and IBO's, and catching up with the tool scam lies, which puts Amway in a very interesting position.

Click on my name for the tool scam details.

Joecool said...

It should also be noted that the $115 a month is gross income and business expenses have not yet been factored in. Thus system IBOs are probably averaging a net loss.

tex said...

jc, Master of the Obvious. What do you think the tool scam is all about?

Click on my name for the tool scam facts.

Joecool said...

So what tex, mater of the obvious. Minus the tools scam and work 8-12 hours a week for $115 a month? Criminy jickets go flip burgers and make a whole lot more than that.

tex said...

jc,

You don't read for comprehension, do you?

I already stated the median or average income does not take into account the:

1. Level of effort, or
2. Amount of time involved.

YOU already (correctly) stated most IBO's are "2's", so how can you expect the average to be higher?

Have fun flipping burger, because your logic doesn't make any flippin' sense.

Click on my name for the tool scam facts.

Joecool said...

Tex, you obviously don't understand what is at stake here.

Let's use YOU as an example.

You have been in 15 years. At 10 hours per week, that would be 8100 hours. If you worked that at $7.00per hour, you would have grozzed $56,700. If you paid our 1/4 of that in taxes, you would have $42,525 left over.

How much did you earn from quixtar? I would bet you didn't come close to earning $42,525 gross, much less net income.
Even if you were doing stuff and earning $115 a month average, you would gross $20,700 in fifteen years doing qxuitar.

Never mind the cost of tools. Even if tools were cheap, all it would do is prolong the amount of time (perhaps) that someone would stay in the scam.

tex said...

jc, you obviously don't understand what is at stake here.

Let's use ME as an example.

I have been in 15 years. I was being scammed for 12 years, while Don Wilson's business was going from 60,000 to 10,000 attending monthly seminars. Every time I was able to put a few people in, they couldn't afford the tools and dropped out. I was told that was normal and to "keep doing what you're doing."

When I found out about the tool scam, I stopped "feeding the beast" and decided to start putting together my own tool "war chest."

I was about to get started again over a year ago, when the shit hit the fan in the UK.

I decided to wait for that to get at least somewhat resolved when the Orrin shit hit the fan.

Both upline and Amway support have been lacking, but the main, first goal is to stop the tool scam. Not only for me, but all U.S. IBO's.

How much do you expect me to be able to make from Quixtar with all of this going on?

The cost of tools is what is responsible for ALL the above, not to mention numerous other lawsuits by former LCK's, when their tool scam spigot got turned off/they got even more greedy.

You don't have a clue what would happen if tools were cheap, because you have never built the business using cheap tools. With cheap tools, people keep much more of their Amway money in their own pockets, and everyone has the same incentive, not with IBO's trying to increase product profit while the LCK's try to increase tool scam profit by ripping off the same IBO's. Without the tool scam, there is no scam. Get a clue.

Click on my name for the tool scam facts.

Joecool said...

Tex, if the tools really did work (But they don't), then you could very easily go run another business, whether it be ebay or Xango or whatever and apply the teaching the tools and succeed.

But you know why it won't work? Because the tools don't work. It they did work, people who had enough money to buy them would still succeed. Not everyone is broke like your downlines and cannot afford $7 tapes and $100 major function tickets.

tex said...

Tex, if the tools really did work (But they don't), then you could very easily go run another business, whether it be ebay or Xango or whatever and apply the teaching the tools and succeed. ---- We've been over this before, and you refuse to admit it was the tools that got you to 4,000 PV, or you could have dropped the tools and started making several hundred dollars/month. Instead you quit. This makes ZERO sense. The tools are Amway specific, why try to use them in another business? That would be like using a screwdriver to pound in nails.

But you know why it won't work? ---- Because you're wrong, it will work.

Because the tools don't work. ---- Again, the tools got YOU to 4,000 PV.

It they did work, people who had enough money to buy them would still succeed. ---- There aren't enough people with "enough money" to make it work. Just because some people have more money doesn't make a scam a good thing.

Not everyone is broke like your downlines and cannot afford $7 tapes and $100 major function tickets. ---- You know very well there are MUCH more expenses than $7 tapes and $100 major function tickets. Not everyone in my downline was "broke", but I'm glad none of them are still being scammed, unless they signed up with someone else.

Click on my name for the tool scam facts.

mike said...

I think it is either way, the tools don't work and the business does not work.

Because if either worked, it would not matter.

Tex said...

jc,

The tools DO work, but the question is for who, and for how long?

Answer: The tools work for the LCK's, short and long term, as long as they can work as fast or faster to replace the IBO's who are being scammed and eventually drop out. Don Wilson said his group attending monthly seminars peaked in 1995, at 60,000, and more recently the size was about 10,000. Even during the time he went down, Don probably was making big bucks, just not as many as in 1995.

In the short term, the tools also work for some of the IBO's, but in the long term the tools drain their pockets and most groups implode. As long as any given LCK can stay on top of the churning, everything is okay for them.

If the tools cost less, more IBO's would be making money, more would stay in, and the business would grow.

Click on my name for the tool scam facts.

Joecool said...

Tex, I will not debate this with you (again). My group did use tools, but the tools did not help us. What porpelled our group was simply excitement and growth. The tools only represents a dedication to the business.

If upline said join the mickey mouse club and you will be successful in quixtar, many downlines would do it and claim that the mickey mouse club was the key to their success.

It's the same with your mickey mouse explanation that the tools work. As I said, if tools work, why can't you apply that knowledge and succeed in another venture besides quixtar? You have never answered this question,

tex said...

I answered that question on November 19, 2008 5:37 PM. You are (again) demonstrating an inability to read for comprehension.

Click on my name for the tool scam facts.

Joecool said...

Nope, you "think" you answered the question. The problem is you don't think.

If your beloved tools actually worked, you could have started any number of businesses and applied what you learned to be successful.

But the tools don't work and you can't apply what you learned. Tkae that to the bank!

tex said...

Why should I have to start another business with tools designed for the Amway business?

Didn't you read my note from November 20, 2008 7:20 AM?

Click on my name for the tool scam facts.

Joecool said...

Because you are a poster boy of failure in the quixtar business tex?

tex said...

I haven't failed, you did. LOL

Click on my name for the tool scam facts.

Joecool said...

15 years, less than 1000 PV? Yeah, I stand corrected, you're a shining example of success. :P

Tex said...

One has to cut down the trees and get rid of the rocks before they can plant a crop that will grow.

Or, one can do as you did, quit and whine.

Click on my name for the tool scam facts.

Joecool said...

Haha, how about a good tree bears good fruit. Tex, you have no tree and you have no fruit. I'm beginning to think you are a fruit. LOL

tex said...

The fruit of the LCK's trees is rotten. That's why... The fruit of the LCK's trees is rotten. That's why I'm chopping them down, you quitter/whiner. LOL

Click on my name for the tool scam facts.

Joecool said...

Tex, you keep whining about the LCK's but you still have no fruit.

Maybeyou didn't quit (yet) but you are a failure who just hasn't quit.
LOL

tex said...

I'm not just whining, I'm chopping them down. Ther... I'm not just whining, I'm chopping them down.

There's plenty of fruit, but so far it's only in other places, like India, Russia, and the UK.

Stand by and watch in amazement jc, because quitting, whining and watching are all you can do.

It's not over until I win, to borrow a phrase from Les Brown.

Click on my name for the tool scam facts.

Joecool said...

See, that's the problem tex, you think you are effecting change but you are not. You think you are winning but you are not. It's business as usual in Amquix world but you just don't realize it.

Tex said...

We'll see what comes out of today and tomorrow's D... We'll see what comes out of today and tomorrow's Diamond and above meeting in Dallas, as well as the upcoming FTC workshop.

Plus, how can you call the changes in the other 3 countries I mentioned "business as usual?"

Click on my name for the tool scam facts.

Joecool said...

It's business as usual in the USA tex. The tools scm is alive and well. Your effort have produced no fruit.

Tex said...

You plant corn in the morning and expect to harves... You plant corn in the morning and expect to harvest the same afternoon, then you quit when your "fruit" wasn't ready. Then you whined. Not smart.

Click on my name for the tool scam facts.

Joecool said...

Haha as Nelson Muntz says. Tex planted his corn 15 years ago and all he is harvesting thistles and tumbleweeds today.

But that's ok tex, keep waiting. Success is right around the corner.

By the way, I'm not whining, I
m just exposing the BS that many amway apologists spew. You're the whiner who's always whining about the tools scam when there are many other reasons your corn isn't growing.

tex said...

I didn't realize I was planting in rocks. Now that... I didn't realize I was planting in rocks. Now that I know how the tool scam works, others won't have to get scammed as I was.

Click on my name for the tool scam facts.

Joecool said...

And it took you only 15 short years to figure this out tex?

Tex said...

No, it took me 12 years, with 2 major medical situations which interrupted my efforts to build the business. Each time I essentially "restarted", so it wasn't even a consecutive 12 years.

Why do you think I am the enemy? I am merely pointing out how others are scamming people like me and you, millions of them for several decades.

Click on my name for the tool scam facts.

Joecool said...

Tex, you treat others like an enemy whenever they don't buy in 100% with your viewpoints. Why do you think you have been banned numerous times on various blogs.

I know there's a tools scam but AQ has other issues.

Anonymous said...

Why is tex planting corn when he should be selling amway stuff?

Tex said...

Tex, you treat others like an enemy whenever they don't buy in 100% with your viewpoints. ---- That's a lie.

Why do you think you have been banned numerous times on various blogs. ---- Because they can't use simple logic to focus on the biggest problem.

I know there's a tools scam but AQ has other issues. ---- I never said they didn't have other issues, but the other issues pale in comparison to the tool scam.

Anon,

It's idiots like YOU that explain why the tool scam isn't history.

Click on my name for the tool scam facts.

Joecool said...

Nope tex, aboslutely true. It's why you feel justified in posting personal things about people once you disagree. BTW, I discovered wuite a bit about you after uncovering your name except that I am civil enough to keep it to myself.

And other AQ issues are not pale in comparison to the tools scam. It's just your opinion that the tools scam is the great issue.

tex said...

I'm glad you think you know a lot about me. With your "talents and skills", it's a virtual guarantee you're on the wrong trail.

I brought up your personal behavior because it's important to know whether others are dealing with a known liar. It has nothing to do with being "civil", it has to do with being truthful. If the truth regarding YOUR behavior is uncivil, so be it.

How can the tool scam NOT be the single most important issue, it produces SEVERAL times more profit than Amway for the LCK's, and keeps most other IBO's from turning a net profit? What COULD be more important than that?

Click on my name for the tool scam facts.

Joecool said...

Well tex, the truth is you are a racist and a liar. That has also been proven to be the truth time and again. You also took many things out of context to make your case and PCJ exposed you each time. LOL

Tex said...

Well jc, the truth is I am neither a racist or a liar. That has also been proven to be the truth time and again. You also took many things out of context to make your case and I exposed you each time. LOL

Why did you try to change the subject? Can't think of something that comes even close to the size of the tool scam problem? LOL

Click on my name for the tool scam facts.

Joecool said...

Yes, you are a racist and a liar tex. It has been proven many times on Qlog and QIAC.

In fact right now there's a thread about you being a racist and why. You are simply wearing blinders.

You can deny it all you want but you have already tied your own noose and hung yourself.

Bill said...

Hey, you get the average income if your average. I'm above all that.

http://quixtarisnumber1.blogspot.com/

Quixtar rocks baby!

Tex said...

Yes, I am not a racist or a liar jc. It has been proven many times on Qlog and QIAC.

In fact right now there's a thread about me not being a racist and why. You are simply wearing blinders.

You can deny it all you want but you have already tied your own noose and hung yourself.

You're even too scared to make a simple phone call to discuss this and other issues.

And, why are you still trying to change the subject? Can't think of something that comes even close to the size of the tool scam problem? LOL

Click on my name for the tool scam facts.

Joecool said...

Tex, you're a liar and a racist.

That's the bottom line, period.

Bill, good luck in your biz. I hope you're still around 6 months from now.