Tuesday, June 2, 2009

Amway Global - How Many Diamonds Are There In Amway?

How many diamonds are there in Amway? I don't know. Nobody knows for sure except Amway and Amway isn't telling. I once emailed Quixtar to ask this question and I was told to ask the person who invited me to a meeting. IBOFightback recently wrote a post on his propaganda blog decrying Amway critics for creating an "echo chamber" effect where people searching for information will be mislead about how many diamonds there are in Amway. Of course, he doesn't criticize the corporation for not publishing this valuable and controversial piece of information. He recently wrote a blog post claiming there are about 4000 Amway diamonds worldwide. While that may or may not be true, given IBOFightback's propensity for lying, it certainly doesn't speak about the number of Diamonds in the US and Canada.

On one of the Amway PR blogs, I posed a question (over a year ago) and Anna Bryce of Quixtar (at the time) stated that there were 160 Diamondships in attendance to 2006 Diamond club. Assuming there were some absentees, there might be a few more than 160 Diamonds in Amway. 160+ Diamondships in nearly 50 years of existence is not much to get excited about. Also, in Amway, a diamond is not forever. Diamonds fall out of qualification, probably more often than a new one emerges.

IBOFightback talks about the thousands of people who may have achieved success thru this opportunity. He doesn't mention however, the MILLIONS who may have been harmed by participating in this wonderful opportunity, albeit possibly from a motivational organization and not necessarily from Amway, Quixtar or Alticor. Although the motivational organizations have mostly been allowed to operate freely to cause this harm, and blemish the corporation's reputation.

The point being missed here is that the more diamonds there are, it is likely that there will be more and more people who lose money. Nearly all diamonds that I know of hard sell their tapes, seminars and other support materials. Thus the more diamonds there are, the more downline, and probably more people on the system. The vast majority of people on the system lose money because of the system expenses. A lack of sales to non IBOs almost guarantees a loss for IBOs because the only way to increase volume without sales is to increase downline who then suffer the losses for you. The more diamonds there are, the more lower level IBOs there are, and more IBOs who make little or lose money in order to support these higher pins.

34 comments:

Anonymous said...

Joe, this is the type of posting I have a problem with. You ask a simple question, "How many Diamonds are in Amway?" and then when you get a "Pro-Amway" answer, it seems that the next response, is something that resembles a " Oh yeah but what about the poor downline that they stepped on to get there?"

I've asked time and time again on your site, "What's the special difference in the Diamonds who started at the same level and had to do the same work to qualify?"

Next thing you know, Gina will be wanting to see all 4000+ P/L and Balance Sheets...LOL

Once again, here is the response from something called "Amway-Wiki"

June 1st, 2009 | Posted in Amway Facts by ibofightback ShareThis
Over on Amway Wiki a number of diligent editors have been creating information pages about the many, many people around the world who have qualified at the Amway Diamond level or higher. I’ve now added an extension to the Wiki which allows us to easily list these pages and so far we have information (at least the names!) of more than 1400 Amway Diamonds and above. Alas … we have a long way to go! A few years ago I saw an Amway “fact sheet” that said more than 4000 business had qualifed at Diamond and above. At the 50th Anniversary celebrations in Ada, Michigan last week Steve Van Andel reported there were 544 currently qualifying Founders Executive Diamonds and above businesses in attendance, and there were reportedly over 4000 currently qualifying Diamond and above IBOs (so around 2000 IBOships) in Las Vegas.

If you can help contribute to Amway Wiki with information on existing Diamonds, or even just a simple page with the names of any Diamonds we’re missing and their level - please do so! Amway Wiki is one of the most popular Amway related websites on the internet, with nearly 20,000 visitors a month - and an awful lot of that traffic comes from people searching for the names of individual Diamonds - folk are looking for information, let’s help them get the facts!

Joecool said...

Anonymous, it is a matter of contention because this is something that Amway has access to and could easily disclose if tehy choose. Listing the people who qualified at diamond means nothing. It is a propaganda tool, IMO.

Even 4000 people who at one time qualified at diamond means nothing if literally tens of millions of IBOs did not qualify for diamond in the same timeframe.

This listing of diamonds would be no different than listing all the names of lottery winners since 1959as a way to show that the lottery works.

Anonymous said...

Well that being the case, shouldn't we start an Anti Lottery web site? I know that my dear old Dad, at 25 a week since 1985, has invested at least 31,200 into lottery tix and at one time, that represented an entire years pay for him and the efforts in the hot sun of construction of 2184 hours.

I know that on the way to Platinum, several years ago, I never bought even a 4th of that in toold and I sure never put 2184 hours into the business in a year.

Think of how many millions and millions of people have bought into that lottery dream, and have never seen a cent.

Amway does publish this inforamtion and has for years. It's in an annual achieve magazine that is mailed out to every IBO. Amway being a privately held company, they are under no legal obligation or moral responsibility to supply company information to the "Blogging Community", no matter how important or significant they may envision themselves to be.

Joecool said...

Anonymus, if you wish to start an anti lottery website, got for it.

The difference you see, if that there is nobody telling you that buying lottery tickets is a good way to retire early, get wealthy and live happily ever after the way some uplines do. The vast majority of people who play the lottery know full well that they are very unlikely to win, as compared to many Amway recruiters who tell people that success is nearly guaranteed if you participate in the system.

Anonymous said...

Joe....That's EXACTLY the dream they are selling you in the lottery! No one buys lottery tix because of the pitch..."Need a little extra grocery money this month? Gas up $.25 a gallon? Play the lottery, it might just help you break even.

But I woldn't even consider the effort into put up a Lotto Blog.

When I got in Quixtar, amd now Amway, I viewed myself as having a 50/50 shot that I would succeed. It was up to me and only me and my efforts and dilligence.

Joecool said...

Anonymous, exactly, except that you don't have a 50-50 shot in Amway. Less than 1% of IBOs ever reachplatinum, which allegedly is the "break even" point if you are heavily dedicated to the system.

Piet said...

Hi Joecool,

Do you, or don't you want a list of Diamonds? Because you ask for one, and then when people give you one, you say it is meaningless.

In which endeavour in life is everybody that starts a success? Why should Amway be the exception?

I haven't been able to do much in the Amway business, but applying the knowledge available in the training system you abuse so much, I have increased my consulting income 8-fold.

You get out of anything in life what you put into it. Tell us, how much money are you making out of your anti-Amway activities?

Joecool said...

Hi Piet, it is nice of you to offer a list of diamonds. However, is a diamond business a good one if nearly all of the downline suffer losses?

Doesn't that make a diamond similar to a lottery winner?

I know that some diamonds make a nice income, but in just about any case scenario that you can draw up, the downline collectively suffers losses.

I would be glad to post a current listing of North AMerican diamonds. I am not really interested in the diamonds from foreign countries and I thanke you for the offer.

BTW, a few years ago, an Amway official said there were 160 diamond-ships at Diamond club (Quixtar only).

Piet said...

You say that a 160 diamonds in 50 years are not a lot. However that is still three people every year that get to an income level of $150 000, if I understand correctly what happens in America.

Plus you yourself say that there are many others that are diamonds no longer, your own estimate is more than 160. So now we are at nearly 7 people per year. And that is using your own information

Joecool said...

Piet, in 50 years, Amway may have had tens of millions of IBOs come and go. 7 diamonds per year with no guarantee of retaining the level for $150K (before expenses).
And if I may add, very few new US diamonds have emerged recently


Does that really sound like a smashing degree of success?

I bet there are more lottery winners in the same period of time.

Anonymous said...

"Anonymous, exactly, except that you don't have a 50-50 shot in Amway. Less than 1% of IBOs ever reachplatinum, which allegedly is the "break even" point if you are heavily dedicated to the system."

Joe, once again, when you are given an answer there is just a plain denial of the substance of that answer. I had a 50-50 shot. Either I did the work or I didn't. I did and I have been successful as an Emerald. I had the same opportunity that you did, I had the same choices to make that you did and I have enjoyed a madest deal of success. We have already broke down the actual meaning of Eagle Paramiters, and the fact that they do not garuntee profitability if the structure within those numbers are not properly balanced.

Percentage wise, considering 100's of millions of people play the lottery every week and have since its inception, are you actually willing to put logic and credibility on the line and say that a greater percentage of people have hit the lotto jack pot than have started and amway business and went platinum or beyond?????

Joecool said...

My anonymous friend, let me clarify what I am saying. First of all, I know that Amway is not a game of chance as is the lottery.

However, lottery ticket buyers know full well that they have a very longshot of winning.

Many Amway recruiters present the opportunity as being easy, in your spare time, and you can make as much as you want, early retiremnet, etc etc.

That is the difference.

Anonymous said...

Joe, on another note, I'm beginning to wonder if maybe the reason the whole Eagle thing never took off for you or you never succeeded in the business beyond that was due to the fact that you never studied the business.

Amway having 150 Diamonds at Diamond Club (I heard it was closer to 400 but we'll stick with 150) was the number of current qualified Diamonds during the recent physcal year. Not the total for the 50 year history. Pins do fall out of qualification. But if you have a good solid Emeraldship, you can still pull in 100-250K a year for several years.

If you have a good solid Q12 business, you can pull in 30-70 a year on top of your job income. That's the kind of "bail out" money that a lot of displaced American would like to have as a back up these days.

Do you agree? (Of course not, but I thought I'd ask)

Joecool said...

Anon, Anna Bryce of Quixtar said there were about 300 "People" in attendance at 2006 diamond club, representing about 160 diamond businesses. I assume many diamonds has spuses at the trip, and for sure, not every single diamond was there. But 160 or a few more sounds right. How many new diamonds have come since then?

You said: "But if you have a good solid Emeraldship, you can still pull in 100-250K a year for several years."

Possibly, but see, that number is very contrary to what Amway reports. Amways says a qualified emerald averages 72,000 a year. I suppose a founder's type could possibly earn what you say, and yes, it could provide a nice living. I agree.

But my point is not that there is no success. I know there are successful people in Amway. I know some of them live well. But is it right or ethical to tell others that thay too can have the same - if only they buy cds and functions and voicemail from you. And then over 99% of them do not come close to what you achieve as an emerald?

Yes, some may not put in enough effort, but it is okay when disregarding the "not enough effort" IBOs, the remaining that reach emerald is still less than 1%?

Anonymous said...

Whoa - the BS line of "do the work and you'll be successful" is typical IBOFB garbage.

If "doing the work" was all that was needed - I'd be wrapping up a long and successful NHL career by now.

Joecool said...

LOL - someone ask IBOFB straught p what level he is. Then you can see more IBOFB garbage and spin. LOL

Anonymous said...

"Anna Bryce of Quixtar said there were about 300 "People" in attendance at 2006 diamond club, representing about 160 diamond businesses."

Joe, Haven't you siad that no one in Quixtar would tell the number of Diamonds, and now you're quoting Anna Bryce of Quixtar saying in 2006...the number of Diamonds?

Are you reciting fact of making it up on the fly.

I have already explained to you the Emerald income is comprised of both system and Amway. A fact that has been in many open meeting presentations for more than a decade.

I still hear no response as to what differentiates those who come to meeting with no group, no volume and no experience, who succeed and those who do not.

Joecool said...

Anonymous, let me clarify, I asked Quixtar directly, how many diamonds there were. They (Their PR staff) told me to ask my sponsor.

On one of the quixtar written blogs, they wrote an article about diamond club. I posed the question and that was the answer I was given.

Please note that nobody ever said how many diamonds there actually were in Quixtar or Amway. They did mention how many were in attendance at that year's diamond club, however.

Joecool said...

Anonymous: I still hear no response as to what differentiates those who come to meeting with no group, no volume and no experience, who succeed and those who do not.

Joe says: I believe those who succeed are simply better at selling, or are better at getting people registered. This may or may not include lying or telling half truths about the business.

rlaurens said...

Missing in all this conversation is the fact that almost 1% of US household is classified as super-rich, and can live off their wealth.

In other words, ordinary US people has 1% probability to be super rich, but join Amway and your probability to be rich drops down to only zero point zero zero zero .... %???

Levi said...

laurens I was reading this blog and was impressed by the facts bounced back and forth up until you spoke. your fact is a lie. if you start an opportunity being unless you get paid 00 with no oppornunity to make a dollar then maybe your chance would go to a 0 percent. but i make a profit in this business because i dont use tools or seminars I sell Products at retail. so I have a far larger chane than 0.

and Joe, you seem to know fully what not to do at this business. If more IBO's had your information they might be able to avoid losing money and focus on how to profit like i do from the business. why dont you focus on teaching the right way or even perform the right way.

Joecool said...

Levi, my blog is mainly to counter the lies that upline leader teach their IBOs.

I present stories, hopefully in an entertaining manner, yet relatable to most IBOs.

Gina said...

So is teaching the right way mean "profit before expenses"?
Let me know where you found that gem of a "fact".

Anon....why is it humorous to you about P/L's? This is an elementary business operating tool. Entry level if you will....yet IBO's have no clue what they are or how to keep one. Then they rant about critics not having experience, or the knowledge or what have you when in reality it is you the IBO who is lacking the experience and clearly the know-how, and even the facts.

Levi said...

joe when you were in Amway did you keep a P/L report? cause really all that is is keeping track of your spending and your income in what we call a budget. Gina why we laugh is because you make such a hissy fit about if someone keeps an accurate budget of thier bills while in most households they do. and no one is going to sit here and show you thier household budget in order to make you feel good. obviously you have never done this business so all you have are trashy comments about how you and your 4mil a year business is so much better than other people. get off your high horse before someone takes you off.

Joecool said...

Levi, I did keep a P/L. The problem for me, was my upline and trusted frined told me to ignore the facts and keep building, and that the money would be there in the end.

Gina said...

"Gina why we laugh is because you make such a hissy fit about if someone keeps an accurate budget of thier bills while in most households they do."

Ummm is that a sentance? Moving on...there is no hissy fit, you IBO's exagerate it into one. I merley point out the obvious and you IBO's have no way to respond and think that by calling it a hissy and laughing it off, takes away the validity of the point, but it doesn't. Pick up a basic business book. You don't even have to read far. For pete sake, even the accounting basics book provided by the IBOA talks of them. Only you IBO's try to sweep it away...and then have the nerve to pretend you are running a business.

"and no one is going to sit here and show you thier household budget in order to make you feel good."

First, I never asked to see anyones household budget and seeing one certainly has no impacty on how good I may feel.

" obviously you have never done this business so all you have are trashy comments about how you and your 4mil a year business is so much better than other people."

More assumptions based on all that integrity right? At least get your facts down before making an arse out of yourself.

" get off your high horse before someone takes you off."

If being right means being on a high horse then alrighty....many have tried to get me down NONE have succeeded....good luck to you boy, you need it.

Levi said...

If he told you to walk across the highway and ignore the cars you would have done it then huh? you kept a P/L report? Please. Can you still post it and let us see what it was like?

Levi said...

is that a sentance? is that some sort of cheap shot to make you feel better? wow, were you a english major too? lets raise that pedestal a little more. If society had ranks like amway you would be in the diamond catagory. you think you know it all and expect everyone to comply to your knowledge.

Gina said...

"is that a sentance? is that some sort of cheap shot to make you feel better? wow, were you a english major too? lets raise that pedestal a little more. If society had ranks like amway you would be in the diamond catagory. you think you know it all and expect everyone to comply to your knowledge."

Oh, you try so hard...

Well, was it a sentence? It was an honest question. (see more of that honesty at work...simple isn't it) Aren't you supposed to be a business owner? A salesman? A leader? And you can't form a proper sentence? No need to be an English major, just the need to use the education obtained at the high school level. Your a business owner for Pete's sake...you are supposed to be helping others succeed....remember?

The only one who thinks I am on a pedestal is you. Your jealousy is getting the best of you...but at least you have changed your tune on blaming everyone more fortunate than you...at least until your next flip flop.

Levi said...

really you are trying too hard. you dont have to resort to my level do you? all you got to do as an upstanding business woman is show me (with proof) that your carrer is better and then possibly I will seek out your carrer as opposed to amway. But likely your carrer either has you burnout or just barely above the financial waters like many americans. why would the media show so many cases where americans are struggling? why would your case be any different? Prove it.

Anonymous said...

Piet thats an interesting fact. 3 people have the oportunity to make $150,000 a year in this type of business. Well, I have another interesting fact for you my friend. Do you know that the amount of lottery winners each year is around 1600 people? Do you know that this ¨DIAMONDS¨ in average spent around 5 or more years to make this amount of money, which is not bad but is far far away from being ¨The Perfect Business¨.

Anonymous said...

Stop crying all people. You are not kids that you will be fooled. I am an Amway IBO and the first slide I show clearly says - THIS IS NOT A GET RICH QUICK scheme. Your success will entirely depends on your effort.
Also, in UK there is no joining fee. So, you are not losing anything if you join the business to take a shot at life. I just completely fail to understand why you people are moaning when the person who joins the business does not lose a single penny. You got to put some effort in it. And that applies to everything in life. Try losing 5kg weight, if you can, and see how much effort does that requires. And here we are talking about being financially free, quitting your job....BIG THING..big effort..simple as that...this isn't for lazy people who loves their TV programs more than their lives.

Joecool said...

They say it's not get rich quick but what do you think 2-5 years to financial freedom is? Also, the UK might be free to join with better prices but the US has a joining fee and high prices.

Anonymous#9000 said...

Even $250,000 isn't that much. I mean, yes it is better than most make, but if I am going to build a business, I want it to be my own, and not rely on other "business owners" who do the exact same thing as me, in order for me to succeed. The people who run Amway make a lot more than you diamonds, and they are making that money off of you.

Also, I seem to recall so much about how much your uplines care about you and your success. The only reason they care about your success is so they can make more money, but really the main thing they care about is you buying those "tools" and going to functions, because then you are sinking the money you are supposed to sink for the big guys to make money.