Tuesday, December 27, 2011

More Amway Commentary?

Joanna says:
27th December, 2011 at 3:33 PM
Hi All,

I started reading this blog back in 2009 I think. I was searching the web for information about AMWAY because a close friend of mine had become involved and was pressuring me to join too.

In those past years not one person in her group has made any money from AMWAY. But they have a lost a lot of important things that can’t be counted, friendship and self-respect. My friend was no idiot and she wasn’t lazy. She put everything into it. For nothing!

The only people who make money in AMWAY are the people who sell the CD’s, Books and Functions.

I think this will be my last post here. My friend has quit, she is my friend again and AMWAY is in the past.

I hope that anyone considering of going into this so called “buisness” because someone promised them “financial freedom” think really really hard. If it worked why can’t they say “I am an IBO with AMWAY and I am rich and personally gaurantee that you will rich be too”

Results are all that matters and all I saw were a lot of unhappy people pretending that were doing great when the opposite was true.

Wednesday, December 7, 2011

Amway Tax testimonial


"I met with a prospective tax client a few years ago. Combined, they both made pretty good money but, upon reviewing their prior returns, I noticed they also had a Schedule C that showed $6k-$7k loss year after year (about 7 years in total). Their prior preparer had warned them about the hobby loss rules but they had insisted they had a profit motive because they were eventually going to be making lots of money. I asked if this was Quixtar. They said "yes" and how did I know that. I told them the large losses year after year were a good sign. They didn't seem to get it. While the IRS hadn't noticed their losses (yet), they state had. While, the state wasn't denying the losses, it was asking them to review the hobby loss rules. I told them that they needed to quit this and they seemed offended. I told them where the people at the top really made their money (the tools) and they wouldn't believe me. They claimed that "no one makes money on the tools". They were well brainwashed. They had an canned answer for every comment I made. The cultlike brainwashing had done its job. Needless to say, I lost them as a client but I couldn't let them go on every year like this without saying something and besides, it was approaching April 15th and they were really really disorganized.

Earlier this year, I did talk our receptionist out of Quixtar. She is only 22 and had never heard of Quixtar or even Amway for that matter. I asked her if her sponsor was trying to get her to go to seminar. She said "yes". Apparently, there was one the next weekend that she "had to be at" (according to him) and it was about 500 miles away. He and a few of his prospects were going to roadtrip. She called him and quit. Well, at least I saved one.

The higher ups at Quixtar really don't want their downline to be successful. There is so much money made on those seminars that, if the downlines started actually being successful, they would stop coming."

Tuesday, November 29, 2011

Former Amway IBO Testimony?

I was approached to join Amway in January 2003. At the time all the talk of ‘financial freedom’, ‘sacking my boss’ and ‘throwing away my alarm clock’ was just what i wanted to hear. The man who showed me the business plan referred to the business as ‘Y2K’ and made no mention of Amway. I went home with my head full of dreams about fancy cars, yachts, private jets and all the material things in life. I signed up the next day and within a couple of weeks had signed up most of my family. The Monday night meetings became a meeting point for my family and friends; I signed them all up!

For the next three years, i effectively worked two jobs. During the day i worked my usual job as a real estate agent and then at nights I went to meetings, cold called potential prospects and showed the plan to potential clients. I dropped introductional tapes, books and then cd’s all over the city. I bought products that I still havent used just to make up my monthly quota of points. When i was getting close to the 21% bonus level for the first time, i was strongly encouraged by my upline to buy an air filtering machine, using approximately $2,000 of money that i didnt really have, just to hit this target.

This pattern continued for three years and i really didnt advance in the business. Slowly my family and downline drifted out of the business, as success eluded them. My wife got sick and tired of showing the plan and going to endless meetings, all for little result. It put a serious strain on our marriage. When i started to falter, my upline would arrange a ‘dream session’ and i would go hard again for another three months or so. Finally, i missed a Monday night meeting. There was an outcry the next day, with all of my upline ringing me to try and remotivate me. By then, in about April 2006, I had had enough.

During my time in ‘the business’ (as it is referred to) i spent at least $10,000 on mostly worthless junk. I accumulated thousands of tapes, cd’s, motivational books and attended hundreds of meetings, seminars and dream nights. I also showed the plan to hundreds of prospective clients. The largest monthly cheque i ever received was about $160, most were a lot smaller than that. I never made a profit. Every month i spent more than i earned.

Five years after i left the business and all of my downline and a lot of my upline have left Amway. Some diehards are still going and good luck to them. God knows how they keep going.

Looking back, I was totally sold on the idea of being a multi-millionaire and having all of the material things in life. I was convinced that Amway was going to provide that. I believed the stories of fantastic wealth derived from short periods in the business, but never directly saw any evidence of it. The most successful couple that we saw have now been in the business for over 18 years and are still not diamonds. I am told that they are still out showing the plan and going to meetings after nearly two decades since first joining. They must have the strenth of Hercules and the patience of Job. Good luck to them.

Since leaving the business I have re-built most of the relationships that were damaged by my over zealous recruiting attempts. I now enjoy just having one job and being able to go home at night and just watch tv on the couch or relax with friends. No meetings to attend, no book of the month to read, no plans to show and no downline to worry about and try to keep motivated. One thing i do have though is a whole garage full of old cleaning products……

Tuesday, November 15, 2011

Amway Myth - IBOs Sign Up Just To Buy Products?

One of the myths perpetuated by IBOFightback aka David Steadson is that a lot of IBOs only sign up with Amway and they exclusively buy Amway products with no intention of building the business. Therefore, the poor results of Amway business owners are actually much better because as IBOFB seemingly claims ad nauseum, that these folks are a success because all they want is the ability to buy products. IBOfightback recently mentioned this on another blog. Of course that makes me question IBOFB's truthfulness when in the past, he said he was making efforts to build his business again. Secondly, it makes me wonder why he has decided to self proclaim himself as Amway's savior when he in fact is only involved as a customer.

How would anyone actually know why someone signed up for Amway? If most sign up and "do nothing" as steadson claims, what about the rest? Even if you were to analyze the business opportunity based on "business building" IBOs, the rate of success is a fraction of 1%, using platinum as the target. The Amway compensation plan is designed that way. In the
6-4-2 plan, which is commonly used at open meeting or at home board plans, shows a group of 79 IBOs, all serious enough to move 100 PV. Well, there's 1 platinum in the bunch and lost of lower level IBOs. I know there aren't any real groups organized like the 6-4-2, but if these IBOs were all on the tools system (functions, cds, etc), then most of these IBOs would lose money. The platinum would likely be the only one with a net profit if these were all "serious" and "dedicated" IBOs. Let's qualify that serious and dedicated is someone who attends all functions and meetings, included major functions, is on standing order, voicemail, book of the month, and invests in other related training materials.

I know there are some people who are IBOs who stopped building the business but remain as customers. But there folks are likely a small percentage of the IBO sales force. This can be confirmed by the attrition rate that Amway has. While nobody can know an exact figure, simple math and common sense would indicate that someone who can get similar products for a fraction of the price would likely abandon their Amway loyalties in favor of WalMart. If you can't see that, you still have soap in your eyes.

Thursday, November 10, 2011

Amway Is Growing - You Heard Joecool Say It!

Our friend Shaun over at WWDB Expeditions Of Truth posted a new article about Amway growth: http://expeditionoftruths.com/2011/11/08/updated-amway-statsfed-presented/

Some of the details:

Figured I’d post a few slides shown by Amway at our recent FED conference. There are some naysayers out there saying business is slowing down, or business isn’t growing in North America, however here are some stats from the horses mouth as it were showing otherwise.

■New IBO Applications +12%
■PV per Engaged IBOs +8% (I’ll assume engaged = active)
■New IBO PV +7%
■$50 Fast Track +30% (Fast Track program is now a full time program and has expanded)
■First year renewal rates were +2%
■Highest qualification growth rate for the US since 2003


Joecool's commentary: Okay, so I am no longer of the opinion that North America Amway is shrinking. What I find a bit odd is that Amway stopped reporting North American sales seperately from Global sales (Because Amway was shrinking in North America???) But what do these figures mean?

Does it mean that today, IBOs register and do something? Or do most people still sign up with the vast majority "doing nothing"? Are IBOs more profitable? Not necessarily. I read recently that the "average IBO income" increased, but Amway did not clearly delineate how they arrived at the number. Maybe they just discounted more "inactive" types of IBOs in their calculation? Maybe they actually paid out more bonuses? However with their compensation plan remaining the same, I would venture a guess that the rate of IBOs going platinum is still a fraction of 1% which makes Amway at best, a questionable business venture. Maybe the Amway sales increase is simply from their significantly raised prices on products and shipping?

So Amway is growing. It's great for Amway and the DeVos and Van Andel families. How does that translate for IBOs? Are you making more than $10 a month? Have you sold products for a profit? Have you made net profits or are you reinvesting all your bonus and more to attend functions and buy tools? Amway might be growing but that doesn't do anything to suggest that IBOs as a whole are better off.

Wednesday, October 26, 2011

WWDB Expeditions Of Truth - Congratulations To Shaun, Latest Amway Retiree?

Looks like our friend Shaun will be retiring next month. See the comments. Congratulations Shaun!


Our Next Goal – My Freedom
Posted by Shaun

Today Lindsay experienced her first Monday where she didn’t have to go into work for money. She was pretty pumped to not have to wake up to the alarm clock. She really did plan her day today and had a great day doing the things she loved and starting the P90X program. I’m looking forward to the nutrition portion and some of the fitness part. I plan on doing some more running along side Lindsay’s getting into shape. A great side benefit of her freedom!

So what’s next? My Freedom, I cannot wait to join my wife so that both of us do not have to wake up to some stupid alarm clock. It’s also I think when people will actually look at us and take us serious that you can actually be successful in this business. I would never ever put our family in jeopardy and when the time comes to make that decision to step away from my job you better believe I’ll be counselling, thinking about it and making my own decision that’s best for our family. It will be a great decision and one we plan on making Late Fall next year. We will be working hard towards that and 2011 will be an amazing amazing year.

I can vividly imagine my freedom day right down to the last details. What’s awesome about that is we will have at least one child by then and I’ll also be home to spend time with him/her which is one of my biggest goals is to be around with my kids and see every moment of their lives. Its a huge goal and not one many parents can say and it’s worth fighting for. I’ve seen a glimpse of that kind of family with Kyle and Erron where Kyle is a professor for the UofS and he gets a lot of time off because of the school season. He is an amazing family man and is one father I look up to outside of my family. I think everyone could learn a few things from the Andersons. So kudo’s to you guys for raising the family you do.

I want to have that great family life, like I said it’s important to me, it’s worth the fight and we will make it happen. Step 1 was to get Lindsay free, and we’ve been able to do that with this business and the association. Step 2 is to get me free so that we can be together and raise an awesome family.

Monday, October 17, 2011

Amway Updates The Average IBO Income ?

IBOFightback and company are celebrating because Amway reported that their North American sales are up and that Amway is apparently growing the the US and Canada. While that is certainly nice for Amway, what does that mean for the rank and file IBOs? Actually, it means nothing in the big picture of things. Oh, and as a side note, Amway has updated their average income statistic. Amway reports that the averahe income of an active IBO is now $202 a month.

While $202 is a nice increase from the previously reported $115 a month income that Amway reported in 2001, the corporation still doesn't give enough information for people to accurately decipher what the number actually means. The lower tier IBOs (i.e. 100 PV) still earns about $10 a month for their efforts. IBOs on the system and below 1000 PV are still very likely suffering net losses if they are attending functions and buying the other system materials.

Amway also reported that there were 1222 new platinums. While that may seem impressive, keep in mind that is a platinum is approximately 1 in 200 IBOs, then the emergence of more platinums just means there are more low tier IBOs who are likely losing money. The compensation plan makes everything very predictable. If about one half of one percent of people are platinums, even if the whole world signed up for Amway, the number of platinums would likely be - one half of one percent.

While the alleged growth might be nice for Amway the corporation, it doesn't mean that the rank and file IBOs are more profitable. All it means is that the Amway apologists have something nice to talk about, even if they may not have gotten any positive benefit out of it.

Sunday, October 9, 2011

Amway Ruined Me?


■Shekhar on October 8th, 2011 7:59 pm
My marriage has ended. I have no more savings. My rooms are full of products I cannot use. I am in financial ruin and I have no money to retire with.

Amway has ruined me. I should have listened. I was so sure this would work out.


What say you IBOFightback? You support a business where this kind of testimonial is common and then you make it worse by saying people like this didn't work hard enough or didn't follow upline instructions carefully. Come on IBOFightback, get out of your rathole and explain why this guy didn't make it. I dare you. *crickets chirping*

Thursday, October 6, 2011

Fake Wealth?


PHOENIX -- U.S. Marshals said Donald Lapre, a Phoenix-based infomercial pitchman, was found dead in his cell Sunday at a federal-contract facility in Florence, Ariz.

Lapre was being held on fraud charges linked to his vitamin-selling business. He was arrested in Tempe earlier this year.

Lapre was found about 8:30 a.m., unresponsive in an apparent suicide, said Matt Hershey, supervisory deputy U.S. Marshal.

Officials refused to say which Florence facility Lapre was in and did not immediately know if he was alone in his housing cell.

Prison officials gave lifesaving measures until Florence police and paramedics arrived, said Hershey.

Lapre was wanted by law enforcement after he failed to appear at his U.S. District Court arraignment in June on 41 counts of conspiracy, mail fraud, wire fraud, promotional money laundering and transactional money laundering. A federal grand jury indicted Lapre on fraud-related charges for promoting his vitamin-selling business, Greatest Vitamin in the World of Phoenix. The indictments alleged that the business signed up 226,794 people who were promised lucrative commission checks for selling vitamins and recruiting others to the business.

Customers and investors spent nearly $51.8 million, but only 5,000 victims were paid about $6.4 million in commission, according to a statement released in June by the U.S. Department of Justice. Lapre collected at least $2.2 million from the business from 2004 to 2007.

Officials did not detail how Lapre may have killed himself, and said they likely would not release the name of the facility in which he was held.

Previously, the U.S. Department of Justice stated Lapre may have suffered from anxiety and depression and warned that he may have had suicidal thoughts.

"We are not yet releasing how he might have injured himself. More likely tomorrow there will be more information," said Hershey.

Lapre is perhaps best know for his informercials urging people to buy his "Making Money" package and get rich by placing tiny classified ads in national newspapers. The informercials became such a pop culture fixture that they were once spoofed on "Saturday Night Live."

Tuesday, September 27, 2011

BS On "Truth About Amway"?

I call BS and a friend of mine who is a dentist confirmed my thoughts:


Aug 3rd, 2010 at 09:43
Sounds like nothing more than a coincidence to me. I’ve had more than one person tell me their dentist has commented on how much better their teeth are after swapping to glister.

xs energy rocks
Feb 27th, 2011 at 18:41
I agree, many people that I have asked to try glister have loved it. They tell me stories how their dentist can really see a difference in their teeth.


Monday, September 12, 2011

Amway Meetings?

A recent comment:

Here is my experience with amway. I got involved with it because of a very close friend of mine. I went to several of the meetings, watched people draw circles, and was promised that I could make a truckload of money. (Their words, not mine).

I went to two "seminars". The first time, just before the seminar started, I went to find a restroom. A man standing in front of the restroom door asked me in a loud and unfriendly voice what I was doing there. I told him I needed to used the restroom. He answered, again loudly, for me to hurry it up.

The seminar felt like a revival meeting gone bad. They played uplifting (cheesy) songs and did a lot of whooping and hollering. The same dumbass who yelled at me before the meeting told everyone in the audience that he loved everyone there. To top it all off, the ONLY refreshments at the end of the seminar was water. Nothing else. Nothing else from the nouveau riche and big spenders.

The other time was at a community center. The speaker was extremely boring. And yet, the promoters made this seminar sound like I was going to have an audience with the Pope. The wife of the boring speaker also got up and said, and I quote: "I don't know how many of you are Christians, but I really prayed a lot about this." Here I was, the only Jew in the audience and she made it seem that only her lot had the monopoly on prayer.

As I have low blood sugar, I went to find a drink. I found a soda machine, but it was blocked by a woman who told me that the machine would make too much noise and interrupt the meeting. I told her that I pitied the poor schmuck who would deny me a drink, and I put my money in the machine anyway. I immediately left.

My friend would often give me lists of books and let me borrow tapes. The books were pedestrian at best and the tapes - at $5.00 each - were of the poorest quality. I listened to an voice mail from "Dexter Yeager" the former beer truck driver who made it big as an "amway distributor". I may as well have listened to Tony Soprano.

So, what is MY dream? I will be no one's foot soldier ever again.

Friday, September 2, 2011

Straight Up Amway Comment?

(Emphasis mine)

27.I want to reference comments 7 and 8 previously, as they seem to be the culmination of an interesting exchange between the reasonably informed and articulate of both camps. (We can very safely ignore the drooling and implanted newbie-sentiments of currently indoctrinated cult members posting on this site in the interests of balance and lucidity)
ibofightback, how can you face yourself in the mirror each day? Are you partaking in a mental excercise where you gain sick satisfaction from countervailing logic and arguing that black is white in order to demonstrate some half arsed, twisted, academic/intellectual superiority? Or do you have too much to lose NOT to adopt a defensive stance towards the patently indefensible?

I do actually have some retrospective knowledge and valuable input, having been involved in the early 90′s thankfully to a limited extent, but long enough to peel back the wafer-thin, highly polished veneer to reveal the rank, stinking underbelly of the AMO’s (Amway Motivational Organisations) and the “mechanics” of this finely-honed bait and switch deception. I reached my conclusions 20 years ago, and they are totally consistent with the views of antoverlord. The only thing that astonishes me is that this monumental, actually evil and truly inhuman SCAM/CULT is still extant in 2010, given the overwhelming and compelling evidence that exists to inform and enlighten. Start the ball rolling with “Merchants of Deception” by Eric Scheibeler by all means…

To continue (given the wearisome reality that it is a near impossible task to raise a congent argument to offset the bovine, obdurate and obtuse spoon-fed ignorance as exhibited and recycled by the assimilatees within this cult

FACT Almost everyone in Amway loses a great deal in terms of life-energy, time better spent, money (depending on how long they stick with it before wising-up) and self respect. The percentages are a matter of record and these people cannot be generalised as losers.

FACT In terms of the sum total of human misery, disilliusionment and loss Amway is (probably) the vilest organisation blighting the face of the planet, effectively sanctioning the activities of the Motivational-Tool toting kingpin IBO thieves, whilst distancing themselves from direct involvement. The dynamics of this decades-long deception are a fascinating study in itself. How many BILLION man-hours have been wasted, and how many BILLION useless miles driven merely to increase the throughput of overpriced GUNK to the obscene enrichment of a handful of truly wicked,greedy and manipulative individuals? I have heard “successful” Diamonds BRAG about driving 90,000 miles a year to SHOW THE PLAN. Leaving aside the environmental impact, within a year or so the income dried up as the attrition rate (never discussed) followed the laws of mathematics to the inevitable conclusion. Yes Guys and Gals, the power of duplication can actually be slowed and reversed…and a damm site quicker than it takes to build.

Go figure, as they say.

Comment by Steve H. | February 28, 2010

Thursday, August 18, 2011

Amway, BBB, and Dun & Bradstreet Reports?

From Amway themselves:


Better Business Bureau Membership The Better Business Bureau (BBB) does not permit the use of its name in connection with advertising for products or services. The BBB name and symbol are federally registered service marks and, hence, using its name or symbol without permission may violate federal law.

You should not use the name or seal of the BBB in any printed materials that go to the general public or in advertisements, nor should you represent or imply to the public, either orally or in writing, that Amway or its products or services are endorsed by the BBB.

This includes asking a prospective IBO or registered customer, or other customer to call the BBB as a reference. Such a request is viewed by the BBB as an implied endorsement, which is impermissible.

IBOs who are members of a local BBB may display membership plaques,certificates, or decals in their offices that are issued by the BBB for this purpose. They may also notify their downline IBOs, through a bulletin or letter that goes only to IBOs, of the fact that they are a member of a BBB.

The Council of Better Business Bureaus, Inc. (CBBB), of which Amway is a member, has provided a fact sheet about Amway to more than 140 local BBBs. Thus, local BBBs that are members of the CBBB are prepared to answer questions from the membership or the general public about Amway.

Local BBBs that are not members of the CBBB can secure such data from the West Michigan BBB, which maintains current information on Amway.

Dun & Bradstreet Reports Dun & Bradstreet financial reports are not to be used in the course of registering new IBOs. This report pertains only to Amway's creditworthiness and is not meant to be used as an investment rating. The business opportunity is not an investment security. All Dun & Bradstreet financial reports are confidential and reserved for the exclusive use of their subscribers. Although you may indicate Amway's soundness when registering others into the business, using Dun & Bradstreet reports for such purpose is prohibited.

Monday, August 15, 2011

Comment About Joecool?

An exchange with IBOFB, followed by the comment?


■Joecool on August 13th, 2011 6:07 pm
IBOFB: “Where, aparent, did anyone ever saying anything about making money without work?”

Any group that promotes the residual income and building it once apparently does so.

I’m fairly certain, based on the UK actions, that NETWORK 21 was doing this.

■ibofb on August 13th, 2011 7:22 pm
Working hard for years and years so that you’ve developed a business that might deliver a level of residual income is “no work”?


As for UK, you clearly didn’t bother following it. The case against N21 was dropped, and if you read the BERR case, and know the peoples whose names are mentioned, you’ll see why. The examples given of people making money? All were network 21. The examples of deception given? None were network 21.

But hey, since when did you let a little thing like facts get in the way of making a claim.

■mike on August 15th, 2011 3:41 am
To ibofightback:

Your being critical of Joecool is way off base and reeks of somebody who is jealous of all the valuable information he has provided to the direct sales income opportunity market in trying to prevent people from falling for a scam like Amway. I’ve been associated with Joe for many years – going back to our days together as posters for the quixtar blog (hosted by Eric Janssen) – and can vouch for this man’s honesty, solid reputability and on target analytical capabilities thru investing his time and effort to a cause – all free of charge – just because he doesn’t want to see others being unfairly taken in by a multi-billion dollar scam like Amway.

IBO, the only thing you need to “fight back” against is your own gullibility and stupidity, not to mention your very arrogant attitude exhibited on this board.

Thursday, August 11, 2011

Amway Recruitment Stories?

Posted July 3, 2011 on Scam.com

I was talking to a friend who lived in Maryland, he told me that once he was conned into an Amway convention ** a friend of his...the convention was in Richmond Virginia.

This was a three hour ride away...at least...traffic can make it four. The fellow was real ambigous, 'it will be a great show, motivational speakers, singers, music...' He asked if it was some religion, he even asked if it was Amway...his 'friend' said no.

I don't think this is funny, I think it is disgusting to do this to someone.

It was years later I ran into another Amway guy that told me that was taught to him, don't say Amway before the meeting, they call it hiding the ball, you are doing them such a favor with the opportunity it would be a shame for them to miss the presentation.

This is the kind of crap that gives MLM a bad name....and I'm not pleased to know it still occurs.

Monday, August 8, 2011

Amway Offices Raided By Police In India?


BULLETIN: Multiple news organizations in India are reporting that police have conducted raids at nine Amway offices in India amid allegations of cheating and money-chain fraud. Early reports say that a news photographer covering the raid was detained by Amway India staff and that the photographer’s camera and baggage were seized by the staff.

The photographer was released after news organizations protested the reported actions of Amway’s staff, according to IBN Live. At least two police organizations participated in the raid, and an Amway office at East Fort in Thrissur was “sealed” by police, according to the IBN report.

Early reports suggest that a PR disaster that goes beyond the headlines generated by the raid may be shaping up for Amway. Not only was a photographer reportedly prevented by Amway staff from taking pictures of the police action, according to an early report in the Hindustan Times, the staff also claimed that police had “harassed” Amway distributors into “giving complaints against the company.”

Amway India denied any cheating had occurred, according to early reports. The company, according to its website, is a wholly owned subsidiary of U.S.-based Amway Corp. of Ada, Mich.


In reading the comments, it looks like IBOFB has obtained another fake personna "Kevin". LOL

Wednesday, August 3, 2011

An Excellent Amway Explanation

I worked Amway for a while, back in college. I have to say that, while a few do indeed make some good money---at least for a while---off the business, the real money doesn't come from the products sold; the real money comes from the "pyramid": basically, you getting other people in, who in turn get others in... ad nauseum. Basically, it's the business version of a chain letter.

Sure, if you can collect ten dollars from a thousand people, you end up with $10,000. The problem is, in order to do it, you are presenting it as though all of *them* can *also* get ten dollars from a thousand people... and while you're at it, selling them their "kit", promotional tapes and materials, motivational speaker materials, etc. So what happens in the end is that you don't dump in ten bucks, you dump in anywhere from a hundred to a thousand (depending on how fast you get out, and if you go to a "conference" with hotel stay, gas money, etc.)... so right off the bat, you've got to get a ton of people in who will put in at least a hundred bucks each, just so you can recoup your losses... because you only get a small percentage from each of them---your recruiter gets a piece of their money, and his recruiter, and so on, and the company gets their piece, too. So, if you make ten bucks off everyone you recruit, you've gotta recruit ten people just to make back your first $100 YOU put in. Let's say you manage that, and in turn, each of them recruits one person, from whom you get 5 dollars per... so now you've made $150... but in the meantime, you've also put more money into travel, more stuff for your kit, more more more etc.

Very few people have the sheer charisma to recruit hundreds over the course of a year. In the end, the bulk of the money those "diamond" distributors make comes from folks who have tried it, put money and time and dedication and enthusiasm into it... and end up leaving, worse off than they were before.

The higher ups do two things that ultimately trip most people up:

1. They tell you that if you *really* believe in the products, and *truly* work hard, you'll make it big.

2. They tell you that anyone who's washed out simply didn't have the right attitude, the right enthusiasm, they didn't work hard enough, they didn't want it badly enough... etc.

The reality is, most people don't have the charisma, and sooner or later, most people realize that if they're making money, they're making it off lying to other people about *their* chances in the business. For some, that doesn't matter... but for a lot of people, it leaves you feeling like you just conned your grandmother out of her savings bonds... even though you got conned as well.

The promoters make it seem like "believe it, work for it, and it will come" is the magic formula. They play on your dreams and your misfortunes. If believing and trying hard were all there is to it, then a whole lot more of them would be successful. The fatal flaw is in the pyramid/recruiting system itself, because sooner or later, someone has to pay the price... and often it's you, your friends, your family, and whomever else *you* persuaded to join up.

Feel free to show this to your friend. He will likely counter with their prepared idea: my viewpoint comes from sour grapes, because I "didn't make it" with the company. (They think of everything in trying to hang onto recruits for as long as possible.)

Something that *might* reach your friend is this:

Has he ever participated in a school sale: candy, oranges, stationary, wrapping paper---the kind of thing that schools, bands, and clubs do to raise money? Very likely he has. Ask him to think about how many kids actually sold enough to win the bike, or the skateboard, or whatever grand prize was offered. Ask him how many only managed to sell a little bit, and how many had to hit up every relative, neighbor, and parents' coworker they could in order to sell even a decent amount, for just that one promotion. Then ask him what happened when those kids had gone to everyone they knew, their parents knew, their families knew, and every neighborhood they could hit... where did those kids go after that?

Eventually, in that kind of thing, with enough people trying to sell something, you run out of people to ask. What happens then? How do you find more? What happens when, out of every fifty people you ask, maybe only three take you up on it? How many people does he actually know? Most of us only know maybe 10 to 50 people to ask something like this of in the first place... what happens when there's no one left to ask?

There's a reason companies that manufacture products sell them through stores, or through the internet, or catalogs---you don't have to personally know people to sell them your goods, and ALL you're selling them is your goods. People seek out the stores, websites, etc. because they *want* or *need* to buy something, AND because the method of purchase is convenient and requires the least amount of effort on their parts.

Pyramid sales, on the other hand, aren't just selling a product, they're also selling what amounts to a membership---and a lot of your income depends on recruiting new members yourself... which depends on "personal" interaction and sales. Not to mention, it requires a lot of effort on people's parts... even if it's just in delivering product and collecting money from folks who will buy the product, but won't join up.

Let's put it this way: it's lots easier to go buy laundry detergent at the grocery store, than to contact someone, place an order, pay for order, and wait for delivery of order. I go to the store, I get my stuff (along with lots of other things offered), I pay, I go home; done deal. It takes me maybe an hour at best, start to finish. Purchasing through a pyramid distributor takes a whole lot longer... and I might not remember I need detergent until I start doing laundry; so do I wait the week for it to come in, or do I drive up the street and get it at the grocers? Doesn't matter that your soap is better than what's on the shelves---the sheer inconvenience and time involved make it the less-desirable option.

Friday, July 29, 2011

Is Amway An Economic Sinkhole?


First, a definition: Positive economic activity is that which makes more wealth in the world. To paraphrase P.J. O'Rourke, it "moves lower-valued resources to higher values". From our discussion above, it's activity which makes a bigger economic pie with more for everyone to eat.

Imagine we start with nothing, except that you live on a lot full of trees, sticks, and vines; I live on land covered with rocks and flint. We trade, do some work, and -- viola! -- we now have axes for ourselves and to sell to others. We're all just a bit richer, and our lives, just a bit better. We can trade with the fruit-people and eat. And we can chop down a tree or five, build shelters, and get inside, away from the cold. We're all richer, fewer of us are dying from exposure, and life is better all around.

We have made the world a better place.

Now consider Quixtar: In Quixtar, there are basiclly two kinds of economic activity. The first is that people buy a lot of stuff from Quixtar corporation. But this isn't generally a significant improvement, since people already had ways of buying similar or identical stuff -- either online or up the street. So the addition of that activity doesn't change the overall economic picture much. Nobody's really getting anything they didn't get before.

(But some of your money now gotes to Quixtar's owners, rather than the owners of your neighborhood stores, or Land's End, or whatever.)

BUT, the product costs must be increased slightly in order to pay bonuses back to the "uplines" who signed up each consumer. So, looking only at this part of the equation so far, people are generally paying more and getting less because of those bonuses. So that's a net negative effect. That part of the economic world is worse.

Now, what about the results of the upline payments? Well, this certainly generates some activity, too, doesn't it? The net effect of this activity is that IBOs, in order to position themselves to receive these payments at some point in the future, run around trying to contact their friends (and strangers), and spend their time, and their friends' time, telling them about this great new opportunity.

There are two things I'd like to note about this:

(1) Such meetings seemed designed to give as little information as possible. This means that people who are accustomed to knowing the cost of things before they buy them have to spend a lot of time, as I did, doing research in order to find out all kinds of things their sponsor already knows, but won't tell them -- or things their sponsor doesn't know, but really should.

(2) Then there are a lot of repeat contacts. Because the come-on is often mysterious, and doesn't mention the word "Quixtar", a person actually has to sit down with the sponsor to find out if it's Quixtar again. ("Oh, this sounds like Amway...")

Looked at as a whole, this is a very inefficient way to get the word out about Quixtar. A billboard sign and a few ad on TV would do the job much quicker and more cheaply and efficiently. (Why this is not done is explained here.)

So what value does all this activity generate? None! What new food or invention was available because Stacey called me to tell me about a "business opportunity"? I would have eaten lunch anyway, that day, but wouldn't have wasted the gas to drive to a lunch meeting I didn't enjoy. I might have just driven around the block a dozen times for all the difference it made.

Marketing, sales, and talk, on their own, don't make the world wealther. And this activity is all about talk. Remember, in the previous example, wealth (in the form of the flint axes) was actually created. But none of this activity creates wealth. It just burns it in a very inefficient manner.

In the end, the vast majority of Quixtar IBOs will drop out without ever having broken even. But consider what they could have done: If they really, really enjoyed it all, then it was no worse than a vacation. But if they could have worked elsewhere, then the world is definitely a poorer place, and we are without whatever contributions they might have given us with those hours.

(Imagine, for example, they'd decided to do community service instead. We'd have more, better playgrounds. Or imagine they'd done landscaping -- people in town would have had slightly better selection and quality when they wanted to landscape their yard.)

So, looking at the whole of Amway activity, nothing of significance is produced.

Wednesday, July 20, 2011

Double X Vitamins?

Check out this eye opening review:
Emphasis mine.


Let’s look at their flagship product… Double-X. No, it’s not the name of a late-night movie, it’s the name of their multivitamin.

You’re supposed to take all three pills, twice a day. Once in the morning once in the evening. Sounds delish. It is beyond me why they can’t just be like Costco and let you take one tablet per day in the morning for all your vitamin needs, but whatever. I’m not Nutrilite.

Unlike other leading multivitamins, a single serving of DOUBLE X is what you need your vitamin to be – 12 essential vitamins, 10 essential minerals, and 20 plant concentrates, giving you the antioxidant power of tomato, blueberry, broccoli, cranberry, pomegranate, and more. The B vitamins found in the NUTRILITE DOUBLE X Multivitamin unlock the energy in your food, and Double X contains more B6 and B12 vitamins than Centrum® Performance and One-a-Day Active® combined! In a clinical study, NUTRILITE DOUBLE X was shown to improve blood nutrient levels to provide your cells with the energy they need to support a healthy heart, brain, eyes, skin, bones, and immune system.

Hm… do you see a contradiction? In the directions, it says to take the three tablets twice daily… however, it says “a single serving of DOUBLE X is what you need your vitamin to be.” So why take it twice daily if a single serving will do the trick? Furthermore, most vitamins I come across are single servings daily. Also, look at the %DV of a single serving. Most of them are well over 100%, so why take it twice? The ones that are less than 100% are ones that you will get regardless unless you eat chalk for breakfast lunch and dinner.

Now, to tie it all up… the cost. Double X? $75 retail price for 1-2 months of consumption. Let’s say 2 months. So average cost of $37.5 / month.

Centrum Silver? Drum roll please… we have a whopping twenty bucks for 220 capsules… That’s almost $3 / month. Even if it’s two capsules per day, it’s $6 / month.

Monday, July 18, 2011

Get Paid What You Are Worth?

One of the things I saw and I believe is still taught today, is that Amway recruiters will talk about people's jobs and how you can only earn what the job is worth, and not what you are worth. Then they tell you to join the Amway business as a means to rectify that situation.

When you stop and really think twice about this, you have to wonder. If your employer doesn't pay you what you think you deserve, you are welcome to offer your services to a higher bidder. If you are unable to find a higher bidder, then you either need to increase what you have to offer, or you have overestimated your value as an employee. But at least as an employee, you have a paycheck that you can depend on, and more than likely, you know when your paydays are.

Now you get excited about being a business owner. Are you now paid what you're worth? Or at least, are you on your way to being paid what you are worth? Have you even asked or thought about what you are worth? Most IBOs, not counting the ones who "do nothing". end up moving 100 PV and getting $10 back from Amway. If they are on the system, they are likely to have spent over $100 a month to participate. Are you now "paid what you are worth?". You are in the negative, and even adding some downline is unlikely to change your situation significantly.

When you spend about $300 to make 100 PV, Amway gets paid. When you earn your 100 PV, Amway will give back about $75 in bonus money. Middle men in your upline take about $65, leaving you with $10. Are you paid what you are worth? Who did the work and who got the lion's share of the reward?

Let's say you worked really hard for a couple of years. You finally reach platinum and you earn $50,000 (before taxes). After taxes and business expenses, let's say you net $25,000. Have you now earned what you are worth? A platinum is in the top 1% of all IBOs and they net maybe $25,000 to $30,000. Are they paid what they are worth? If you can't answer yes to any of these questions, you have to ask yourself if the whole thing is worth it?

Tuesday, July 5, 2011

Is Network 21 (Amway) A Joke?


Heman on July 5th, 2011


I was foolish enough to attend the Canberra, Australia winter conference for Network 21, which cost me $170 plus fuel, food expenses.
The whole event was a joke, it was like a massive hypnotic session where “established” IBO’s would show case there holidays, cars just to further a)suck in the young one’s to train more suckers out there or b)put off people in the process.

People where dressed in there suits and Tie’s, gowns and dress just to add the glitz of the success. Noone was ever friendly except for those on your team or upline who only looked at you because your worth $$$$$$$$..

The number 1 guy for the whole weekend was Massimo Bini, who showcased his good life by ripping off others.

After that weekend went past, I now have cancelled all my associations with Amway, Network 21.

Beware it is a SCAM, I just had to pay a fortune to see the real light.

Never again AMWAY.. you losers.!!

Friday, July 1, 2011

Debunking Some Amway Arguments?

From another forum:
The majority of volume comes from the two major brands of Nutrilite and Artistry, both of which are generally cheaper than the competitors.

Not true. They are, in fact, far more expensive. Let's take Nutrilite: Their vitamin C tablets (300 tablets) cost -- are you sitting down? -- $52.49. Compare this to, say, Shoprite's vitamins which cost (for 100 tablets) $3.95, or about one fifth the price of Amway's stuff. This 5:1 price difference is typical of Amway products. Amway lies and says it's due to the products "superior quality" -- their Vitamin C is "natural" or "organic" or whatever (yeah, like the molecules give a flying duck!) But the truth is that it is more expensive because ca. 70% or so of Amway's sticker price is payments and commissions to the "uplines" in the pyramid. Except for, perhaps, other, even more expensive pyramid schemes (I presume that's who you mean by "competitors"), Amway's products are ludicrously overpriced.

The majority of Amway's members are not in the US. Amway is a business, not a job.

Actually, It is a job. Amway reps are salesmen whose sales pay for their upline, their upline's upline's, and so on, comissions -- just like a saleslman in a store pays for his boss, his bosses' boss, etc., salary. It is only a "business" in one sense -- you don't get paid. Unlike salesmen in stores or other places, Amway folks work on full commission, get no salary, health benefits, or anything else. Heck, they don't even need to be fired if they stop selling -- they fire themselves by not renewing. It's no wonder their bosses, the "upline", love them so much. They work for them for free!

Like any startup you will generally work for little or nothing for months or years to reach decent profitability.

Not really. Startups finally become profitable IF THEY SELL ENOUGH PRODUCTS OR SERVICES TO THE PUBLIC. Amway folks only become profitable if they GET ENOUGH PEOPLE BELOW THEM IN THE PYRAMID. Nobody cares about the product -- it's just an excuse that officially makes the pyramid legal. It's not as if anybody except for Amway drones, brainwashed by their "upline" to be "team players", actually buys a $52.49 bottle of vitamin pills -- of which $40 or so is pure commission to the upline, the upline's upline, the upline's upline's upline...

The rest of your "analysis" is based on this false assumption it's a job. Please compare to starting an running a business, with all the attendent strengths and weaknesses.

WHAT strengths?
It is a business selling incredibly overpriced products, where nobody has any contractual guarantee of any territory, and in which you are very strongly encouraged to RECRUIT YOUR OWN COMPETITION. If Amway were a business where the goal was to make money selling products, it is a suicidal business plan -- it's as if McDonald's priced their hamburgers at $100 a piece, and encouraged every franchise owner, not to sell hamburgers, but to recruit every customer to open another McDonald's next door in order to "join the great opportunity".

Amway's pricing and strategy of recruiting make it crystal clear that it isn't a business, but merely a pyramid scheme where the real, indeed the only, money is found by getting people "under" you to buy tons of overpriced stuff so you'll get a comission... just like YOU paid tons of money to YOUR upline buying tons of overpriced stuff so HE'LL get a comission.

Monday, June 27, 2011

Self Made Millionaires?


PAUL SULLIVAN, On Friday June 24, 2011, 1:03 am EDT
WHEN I started writing this column almost three years ago, one of my goals was to figure out what the wealthiest Americans knew and pass along those lessons to middle- and upper-middle-class readers.

Recently, I put that idea to the test, spending the afternoon in a Manhattan town house with eight wealthy men who are all members of an investment club called Tiger 21. I was there to hear an unvarnished critique of how my wife and I save, spend and think about money.

Each of the 180 members of Tiger 21 has a net worth of at least $10 million, pays $30,000 in annual membership fees and commits to spending one day a month with other members. Nearly all of them made their money — they didn’t inherit it — and most are men.

I had asked to sit in on one of the group’s signature sessions, the portfolio defense, but a few weeks ago, the members invited me to be in the hot seat. I jumped at the chance. Beyond looking at how money is invested, the portfolio defense is intended to force members to discuss their wealth in the broadest terms.

I had heard horror stories. One member was told he needed to lose a lot of weight if he was going to get people to invest in his new fund. Another was chastised for telling his children that he had lost his money in the financial crash so that he would not have to talk to them about his immense wealth.

Michael Sonnenfeldt, the founder of Tiger 21, used the term “carefrontation” to describe what happens in a portfolio defense. The assessments are meant to be direct, unsettling and possibly painful to hear, Mr. Sonnenfeldt told me. But the goal is to get members to think differently about what they are doing with their investments and about everything in their lives that is affected by their wealth, from their family to charities.

“It’s not meant for the faint-hearted,” Mr. Sonnenfeldt said. “This is a process that some people could clearly find offensive or discomforting.”

What I experienced was rough, but it was also thought-provoking. The value to me — and to anyone given a similar opportunity — was that the members challenged everything about my assumptions on saving and spending. Here’s some of what I took away.

OUR MISTAKES In the week leading up to this, I worked with Joel Treisman, an executive coach and the chairman of one of Tiger’s 17 groups, to gather up all of our financial reports.

I was confident that the group would think my wife and I were in good financial shape. We save a good percentage of our income. We don’t have any debt beyond mortgages and a car payment. We probably spend a bit too much on food and pet care, but we don’t run up credit card bills to do it.

The members were warm and welcoming as we filled our plates with poached salmon, grilled asparagus and buffalo mozzarella from the buffet. But as soon as we were seated, it was all business. And I was immediately on the defensive. There were two big surprises but also blunt advice and some thoughtful questions about our portfolio.

First, the surprises. The group agreed that we did not have enough life or disability insurance. We both have insurance that would cover about three or four years of earnings if one of us died. This seemed sufficient to get past a few years of sorting things out. The group disagreed. Going from two incomes to one would mean a radical rethinking of our life.

We needed more sizable policies to give us the freedom to sort through things. Though we both carry disability insurance, the policies are old and do not reflect our current income. They would also cover only 50 to 60 percent of our old base salaries. The members thought we should buy individual policies to add to this.

The second surprise was about our savings. We have been saving about 15 percent of our post-tax income. Alan Mantell, a lawyer who made his money in real estate, development and investment, said the issue was not how much we saved but how we thought about spending.

“You need to ask, ‘What can I afford to spend versus what do I need to spend?’ ” he said. We could be saving more money for retirement — or in case something bad happens — if we cut back on things we did not really need, he said.

All the members agreed that we should sell our vacation condominium. “You need to become more liquid,” said Thomas Gallagher, the former vice chairman of CIBC World Markets. “If something bad happens, it’s easy to get rid of a dog walker; it’s hard to get rid of a house in Naples.”

Florida real estate is in a sad state, so I asked what they would do with an offer that was less than our mortgage?

“Take it,” Mr. Gallagher said. “Write the check and be done with it.”

As for our portfolio of stocks and bonds, the questions were more basic. Leslie C. Quick III, whose money came from Quick & Reilly, the discount brokerage firm, looked at our investments — 50 percent in equities, 34 percent in fixed income, 12 percent in commodities and real estate and 4 percent in cash — and wanted to know how our investment manager had done in the bear market. He also thought we should ask our adviser how he balances the risks in our jobs against those in our portfolio.

OUR SOLUTIONS Because I had parachuted into Tiger 21 for one meeting, I was taken aback by the group’s brutal honesty. I walked out after three hours in a daze. Over the next couple of days, though, I concluded that the members had made some great points.

Some solutions were simple. We can increase our term life insurance for comparatively little money — $1 million of term life costs about $700 a year. Individual disability policies cost more. Barry Lundquist, president of the Council for Disability Awareness, said the yearly premium would usually be 1 to 3 percent of a person’s salary, but the payout would still be limited to a percentage of that person’s income.

As for our portfolio, I put the questions to our adviser, K. C. King of Emerson Investment Management. I liked that he did not sidestep the bear market question: Emerson’s portfolios did better than the benchmarks in 2008, but they lost value like everything other than cash, gold and Treasuries.

Where I took comfort, though, was in how he thought about our portfolio. “We’re very mindful that what we’re managing for you and most of our clients is their core portfolio,” Mr. King said. “If someone said from the Tiger group that this is fairly conservative and you’re not taking big swings, we’d say you’re right. This is the portfolio that we’re trying to keep for your daughter’s education and into your retirement.”

The issue that Mr. Mantell raised about spending is the thorniest one. My wife and I are under no illusions that having a condo in Florida makes financial sense. Trimming spending in other places is easier: Walking the dogs ourselves, for instance, would save $100 a week or $5,200 a year.

In the end, though, there are such radical differences between the wealth of the Tiger members and most Americans that some of their advice could not apply.

Mr. Sonnenfeldt estimated that 90 percent of Tiger members had paid off the mortgages on all of their homes.

They also tend to view money as something to preserve rather than accumulate. Mr. Sonnenfeldt said members spent about 3 percent of their wealth annually, which allowed the principal to continue to grow. But at the $10 million entry level, this would mean $300,000 a year.

Perhaps most important, none of the members became rich by eating out less. They became rich by working in industries that paid extremely well or by building businesses that they later sold.

Still, what was best about the session was that no one pulled any punches. Their honesty forced us to think hard about the assumptions we were making. Yes, it was difficult. But really, who wouldn’t want advice from those who have made it?

Tuesday, June 14, 2011

Funny Thoughts?

I had some thoughts about the Amway opportunity this morning and it made me chuckle as I was thinking. Imagine going to the bank for a loan and when asked for income verification, you show the loan officer a copy of a check you received a year ago. Or better yet, show the loan officer a picture of your home or your car and ask the bank to consider that as proof of collateral. You would likely be escorted out of the bank by a security guard. Or imagine showing the loan officer the 6-4-2 plan when applying for a business loan. You'd be laughed out of the bank.

But IBOs are recruited with these tactics. They are shown pictures of mansions and fancy cars. It implies that the upline diamond has attained these trappings with income they receive from Amway. Then the 6-4-2 plan or a similar version will be shown as a very simple and manageable way to achieve these pipe dreams. Looking back, I fell for it and believed it could be done. I also believed that my diamond was free when the evidence suggested otherwise.

I always wondered why the diamonds were always out showing the plan to people and why they could walk away from their businesses and live in luxury, but none of them opted to do so. Since the thought of doing nothing while money rolls in is a dream, why doesn't anyone choose that option? Of course, the IBOs will claim that their upline diamonds choose to work and help downline out of the goodness of their hearts, but now I can see that it is far more likely that diamonds keep working because they have to.

The attrition rate in Amway is significant, thus anyone who would choose to walk away might have income for a while, but attrition would turn the business into nothing very quickly. A diamond's stability is only as solid as are his platinums. We know that it is very very common for platinums to drop out of qualification or to quit altogether. And if platinums can drop out in a blink of an eye, so too can a diamondship. I believe my former diamond doesn't have any of his originally qualified platinums who still qualify, and I believe most of them have quit. Try taking that to the bank.

Anway, just sharing some of the funny thoughts I had this morning. Hope you have a good one!

Thursday, June 9, 2011

Amway Is Number One!

I saw this anonymous comment today on another Amway forum and could not resist reporting it. Absolutely hilarious! (Bold emphasis mine)


Anon on June 9th, 2011 7:00 am

“I don’t really want to debate just throw some things out there”

In other words, I don’t really want to have to consider another viewpoint, you should just drink the Kool aid like I did

“1. Why should shekhar tell you how much he’s making”

Shekhar is promoting Amway as a moneymaking opportunity but he’s never made a profit. We just want to see how much we can lose each month like you and Shekhar”

“Amway is the #2 in making millionaires. (#1 is microsoft)”
Amway is #1 at making up bogus claims and getting naive Ambot zombies to repeat them as fact. Seriously, where did you get that bs.

98% of all amway products are purchased by their Ibos and the other 2% by their mothers. According to research the average ibo has an IQ just 12 points above clinical retardation. 10% of all ibos are killed each year by irate neighbors, exfriends and spouses who just can’t take it anymore.

See how easy it is?

Wednesday, June 8, 2011

Time To Fire The Coaches?

Every time a professional sports season ends, we see losing coaches fired. It's very common as the goal is to win, especially when team owners expend millions of dollars to achieve the goal. If a new coach takes over a really poor team, he is ususally given some time (a few seasons) to effect positive change. Eventually, that coach is expected to win or at least be competing for a championship. If not, that coach will also eventually be fired as well.

In Amway. there are many diamonds and above who have been around for more than ten or twenty years. They have been selling their systems for many years. making handsome profits which they use to fund their "diamond" lifestyle. But where are the success that make it a worthwhile investment? There are fewer new Amway diamonds in North America than there are powerball lottery winners. While Amway is not a game of chance, it seems that a game of chance with overwhelming odds produces more success than the Amway business opportunity.

While Amway zealots and supporters like to cite all the new platinums, keep in mind that platinum is the level where you break even or make very little profit. Only a platinum who is not on the system is likely to have a nice profit. A fully dedicated system platinum expends so much to run and maintain the group, plus their own system expenses that it's easy to conclude that platinums do not make enough where it's worth all the time and effort. A platinum couple would likely net more money working part time minimum wage jobs. And even with the emergence of new platinums, unless Amway is growing by leaps and bounds (not likely in North America), then new platinums are more than likely simply replacing old ones who do not qualify anymore. With such instability at the platinum level, how can anyone "walk away" and collect income while sitting on the beaches of the world?

So is it time to jettison some of these upline leaders/teachers? Millions of IBOs come and go through the business within a handful of years but the number of new diamonds (North America) can be counted on my fingers. It is not possible that all the motivated and ambitious IBOs end up lazy and incompetent to the point where notable success is a tiny fraction of 1%. Surely the system mush be broken of ineffective. A coach cannot continue to lose and blame the players. Sooner or later, someone must examine whether the coaches are effective or not. In the case of the Amway business, I'd say the coaches (diamonds) are miserable failures. The facts are there, it's a matter of whether you believe the facts or not.

Thursday, June 2, 2011

The Diamond Illusion?

One of the things I noticed after walking away from the Amway business was how IBOs and higher pins try to create an illusion of wealth. They are told to wear suits to all of their meetings, act as if they are already successful in Amway, as if acting the part will make it so. Some IBOs are taught to fake this success, or "fake it till you make it". I suppose this is taught so prospects will be enticed into looking at the business or possibly joining because they see success and want a piece of the action. It is why many aspects of functions are about attaining wealth, quitting your job and showing off the diamond lifestyle.

But as time passes, more and more evidence has become available which shows that the diamond level (and higher) may not be all it's promoted to be. There are stories of diamonds quitting the business, diamonds fighting and suing each other over tools income, diamonds having homes foreclosed or going bankrupt. A book written by Ruth Carter about a diamond who was her former employer showed a diamond with a gross income of over a million dollars, yet this diamond apparently was broke, living in debt but continuing to portray success while on stage. The diamond was appearing to be financially successful but had overdue taxes, credit card debt, and littelt equity in their (mortgaged) home.

What many IBOs and prospects see on stage are pictures of the easy life, early retirement, no job, fancy cars and homes, fancy vacations and exclusive things in life. All of these can be achieved by joining Amway and going diamond right? Amway reports that the average diamond earns less than $150,000 and that is before taxes and business expenses. When you sit down with a calculator, it is easy to see that it is virually impossible for most diamonds to have what they portray. Amway apologists will claim that their groups don't do this, but basically, the function that is currently called "dream nite" is where the theme was the lavish goodies that diamonds have, and you can have, if only you will build the business.

So why do the diamonds put on this show? Simple, because it's a recruiting tool. People won't want to join if you tell them to work hard, achieve diamond and live a middle class lifestyle. Unfortunately, I believe that a diamond income will mostly provide a middle class lifestyle and not that of a jetsetter. Do the math and it's very clear. Also, one should note that much of a diamond's $150,000 income is in the form of a one time annual bonus, thus a diamond's monthly income might be quite low. Many people don't know this and believe the illusion they see on stage.

This blog and this post is to clear up some of the illusions behind a diamond lifestyle. It is very likely not what you think it is.

Tuesday, May 24, 2011

Amway Myths About The BBB

So many IBOs continue to perpetuate myths about the Better Business Bureau (BBB) and other factors as evidence that Amway is a good opportunity. What does the BBB do? What does the BBB say about their ratings?


If a business has been accredited by the BBB, it means BBB has determined that the business meets accreditation standards which include a commitment to make a good faith effort to resolve any consumer complaints. BBB accredited businesses pay a fee for accreditation review/monitoring and for support of BBB services to the public.

BBB Code of Business Practices represents standards for business accreditation by BBB. Businesses based in the United States and Canada that meet these standards and complete all application procedures will be accredited by BBB. The Code is built on the BBB Standards for Trust, eight principles that summarize important elements of creating and maintaining trust in business.

BBB accreditation does not mean that the business’ products or services have been evaluated or endorsed by BBB, or that BBB has made a determination as to the business’ product quality or competency in performing services.

Businesses are under no obligation to seek BBB accreditation, and some businesses are not accredited because they have not sought BBB accreditation.

**As far as I know, Amway has a satisfactory rating from the BBB. What so many IBOs do not take note of is that a good rating from the BBB has nothing to do with the viability or profitability of the Amway business opportunity. IBOs should also note that they as "independent businesses" are not Amway. Why uplines continue to perpetuate this fallacy is puzzling to me.

Thursday, May 19, 2011

How To Become A Millionaire?

Amway isn't listed as one of the factors. LOL The diamond lifestyle also doesn't match what the article says:


1. Only Marry Once
According to "The Millionaire Next Door" by Thomas J. Stanley, Ph.D and William D. Danko, Ph.D, the average millionaire is married with three children. The wives of these millionaires are good budgeters and most often described as even more frugal than their husbands. Interestingly, according to Stanley and Danko's survey, half of these wives do no work outside the home and of those who do, they are most likely teachers.

One upside of only marrying once is avoiding the costs of divorce and of subsequent weddings. The cost of a divorce depends on many factors including income, attorney fees, court fees, and the assets a couple has and how they are divided. The average wedding cost in the United States in 2010, according to The Wedding Report.com, was $24,070.

2. Live Off One Income
One of the advantages of having a life partner is the potential to pull in two incomes. If you are able, consider structuring your set expenses based on only one income, and save what comes in from the other income. Doing so strengthens your financial position in two ways: In case of an emergency or if one partner loses their job, you will not only have less set expenses to cover, but you will also have built up your net worth as a safety measure.

3. Choose the Right Career
According to The Millionaire Next Door, "self-employed people make up less than 20% of the workers in America but account for two-thirds of the millionaires." The book goes on to list an average of 45 to 55 hours spent working per week, so by no means is this the self-employed fantasy of playing golf while your business grows.

The idea of the "right" career can encompass a myriad of factors. Ideally, this would be a career you enjoy, otherwise you likely won't be putting in the dedication required to be successful. The right career would also coincide with overall working trends, or at least not work directly against them. For example, starting a career in typewriter manufacturing may be something you are passionate about, but it would likely suffer due to the current technological trends.

4. Put Your Money in Appreciating Assets
According to Stanley and Danko, the millionaires in their survey invested nearly 20% of their realized household income each year. Nearly 20% of the household's wealth is held in "transaction securities such as publicly traded stocks and mutual funds" and the millionaires tended to rarely sell their equities. Only a very small number of the millionaires surveyed had ever leased a car; few even drove the current year model. Half of those surveyed had lived in their homes for more than 20 years, which, as the authors point out, means they have likely enjoyed "significant increases in the value of their homes."

The end result? These people put a financial priority on assets that will make them money, from their homes to their businesses.

5. Don't Live the Millionaire Lifestyle
Warren Buffett's frugal lifestyle (especially relative to his net worth) is the go-to example for this point. The average value of the surveyed millionaires' homes was $320,000. The bottom line is, those who spend their money on non-appreciating assets cannot put that same money in an asset that will net them a return and increase their wealth. If it is important to you to build your financial worth, stop spending it on new cars, toys and clothes. (The Oracle of Omaha has a net worth in the billions, but his lifestyle is not as rich as you may think.)

The Bottom Line
Becoming a millionaire is easier than ever. While this is a dream that will take work and discipline to achieve, it isn't as far out of reach as you might think. Be smart with your money and before you know it, you'll be able to count yourself among the world's wealthier citizens.

Monday, May 16, 2011

Ten Plain Truths About Amway and MLM


Ten Plain Truths

1. 99.9% of all people who join Amway/Quixtar and other multi-level marketing schemes like it never earn a profit. The losses are so large that these schemes cannot be called a legitimate "business opportunity."

2. To get people to join a MLM scheme in which nearly all will lose requires deception. The promoters do not tell the truth.

3. The people at the top hide basic facts from recruits such as average income, actual costs of doing business, drop out rates, and how much of the total bonus money they receive. They also do not reveal the source of their money, most of which comes from selling "training" materials. Often, their income is from recruits in other countries.

4. Very little of the MLM products are ever actually sold to consumers. The people who buy these products do so as part of investing in a "business opportunity." The business is therefore not "direct selling." It is actually about promoting a bogus business opportunity.

5. More than 50% of all people who join these schemes quit in the first year. Trying to make money from recruiting is therefore a long and costly effort. When a person starts out to build a 'downline" they are already at the bottom of someone else's very large downline. Only a tiny few can ever be at the top.

6. Those few that start at the top of the scheme or who climb to the top make their money directly from the losses suffered by all the latest recruits.

7. The training and motivation seminars, books and tapes are a secret business run by the top promoters of the scheme. Buying tapes and books does not increase a person's chances for success. It only adds to the losses.

8. The people selling the books and tapes are not necessarily successful in the MLM business. Rather, they make most of their money selling the recruitment materials. Claims that they are successful and that the business is a "great opportunity" are false.

9. The schemes recruit more and more people every year, but also many quit. So the scheme can run for many years before it must find other areas with more people to recruit. The longer is operates, the more people it has harmed.

10. The main reason the government of the United States does not investigate these schemes for deception and unfair practices or for running pyramid schemes is that leaders of these schemes contribute huge amounts of money to the politicians' political campaigns. Consumers, therefore, must look out for themselves. Just because a particular MLM such as Amway/Quixtar is not prosecuted by the government does not mean it is legitimate or that you will ever make any money from it.

Contact: Robert L. FitzPatrick

Thursday, May 12, 2011

The Debt Free Illusion?

One of the things our upline taugnt the downline IBOs was to get out of debt. Nobody can argue that consumer debt is good. Everyone should strive to be debt free, save for your mortgage perhaps. But my former (WWDB) leaders, I believe taught people to get out of debt only because they wanted downline to have disposable cash to purchase tools. It was obvious by their teaching.

Debt was bad. I heard Greg Duncan speak (at a function) about how stupid it was to make any loans because the banks made their living off the interest. Ironically, Mr. Duncan apparently had interest only loans in his name several years ago, when he was in bankruptcy proceedings.

But the theme was to get of debt, but it was okay to "invest" in your Amway business and it was okay to go into debt if if meant that you were buying standing orders or buying more function tickets. The underlying message I get from that is that the leaders don't truly care about your financial situation, just that they want you to focus your spending on thei personal interests.

This gets dicey when IBOs might get the impression that they should cash out their 401Ks. or sell their homes to reduce debt. The long term collateral damage from this kind of advice might bring ruin to some families. Some IBOs may even be in more debt because of advice from their sage upline, but will simply shrug it off and lie about their finances. I can confirm this by the teaching WWDB has or had, which was to fake it till you make it. Meaning you give the appearance of success, even if you don't have it. Or in other words, give the illusion of being debt free.

Monday, May 2, 2011

Interesting Amway Comment?

This was a response to an IBOFB comment. Enjoy!

27.I want to reference comments 7 and 8 previously, as they seem to be the culmination of an interesting exchange between the reasonably informed and articulate of both camps. (We can very safely ignore the drooling and implanted newbie-sentiments of currently indoctrinated cult members posting on this site in the interests of balance and lucidity)
ibofightback, how can you face yourself in the mirror each day? Are you partaking in a mental excercise where you gain sick satisfaction from countervailing logic and arguing that black is white in order to demonstrate some half arsed, twisted, academic/intellectual superiority? Or do you have too much to lose NOT to adopt a defensive stance towards the patently indefensible? I do actually have some retrospective knowledge and valuable input, having been involved in the early 90′s thankfully to a limited extent, but long enough to peel back the wafer-thin, highly polished veneer to reveal the rank, stinking underbelly of the AMO’s (Amway Motivational Organisations) and the “mechanics” of this finely-honed bait and switch deception. I reached my conclusions 20 years ago, and they are totally consistent with the views of antoverlord. The only thing that astonishes me is that this monumental, actually evil and truly inhuman SCAM/CULT is still extant in 2010, given the overwhelming and compelling evidence that exists to inform and enlighten. Start the ball rolling with “Merchants of Deception” by Eric Scheibeler by all means…
To continue (given the wearisome reality that it is a near impossible task to raise a congent argument to offset the bovine, obdurate and obtuse spoon-fed ignorance as exhibited and recycled by the assimilatees within this cult

FACT Almost everyone in Amway loses a great deal in terms of life-energy, time better spent, money (depending on how long they stick with it before wising-up) and self respect. The percentages are a matter of record and these people cannot be generalised as losers.

FACT In terms of the sum total of human misery, disilliusionment and loss Amway is (probably) the vilest organisation blighting the face of the planet, effectively sanctioning the activities of the Motivational-Tool toting kingpin IBO thieves, whilst distancing themselves from direct involvement. The dynamics of this decades-long deception are a fascinating study in itself. How many BILLION man-hours have been wasted, and how many BILLION useless miles driven merely to increase the throughput of overpriced GUNK to the obscene enrichment of a handful of truly wicked,greedy and manipulative individuals? I have heard “successful” Diamonds BRAG about driving 90,000 miles a year to SHOW THE PLAN. Leaving aside the environmental impact, within a year or so the income dried up as the attrition rate (never discussed) followed the laws of mathematics to the inevitable conclusion. Yes Guys and Gals, the power of duplication can actually be slowed and reversed…and a damm site quicker than it takes to build.

Go figure, as they say.

Comment by Steve Howarth | February 28, 2010 |

Thursday, April 28, 2011

Amway and Lying?

One of the things that got me upset after I left the Amway business was the amount of lies and deceit used to attract IBOs, and to keep them in the business. My first encounter with the Amway business was being invited to a beer bust that was actually an open board plan at someone's house. I later attended a meeting and eventually sign up when a very good friend of mine had gotten in and had qualified as Gold Direct (at that time).

As an IBO, I was told that NOBODY made profits from tools. I was also told that WWDB was a non profit organization. Both were lies and to date, as far as I know, not a single WWDB leader has been held accountable for these lies. Other questionable statements were "we don't make pennies until you make dollars", and that upline truly cared about us, and that's why they put on functions. At the time, nobody really knew that some uplines might have been making a living off tools and not from Amway.

Things changed a bit later, with the advent of Quixtar, but then more lies came from many IBOs, such as Quixtar is not Amway and is not even related in anyway. Seems that tricking people into meetings has never changed over the years and still occurs today. There are pockets of IBOs who are ethical, but they are the exception and not the rule. We also saw the perfect water fiasco where IBOs were selling $48 cases of water that allegedly had magical powers, only to find out it was mostly a hoax and Amway finally stepped in to stop some of the wild claims.

The there's the age old lies told about IBO income. I recently had a conversation by email with an IBO who swore that he made $1000 a month from Amway and he said he would shut me up by sending me a PDF copy of his check. Well, none came and he blocked me from contacting him. Now I don't doubt that people can earn $1000 a month from Amway, but the cost will be a bunch of downline to eat losses so you can earn that magical check. Trying to get a straight answer about income from most IBOs is like decpihering hyroglyphics at times.

If you are usinng deception as part of your recruitment process or using other deceptive practices, then you may ask yourself what your prospect will think if and when they discover the truth? This may be why Amway IBOs drop out like flies, where more than 60% of IBOs drop out the first year. I have just touched the tip of the iceberg by the way, I may have to do a follow up blog post to cover more on this interesting topic.

Monday, April 25, 2011

How To Retire As A Millionaire?


The 7% solution: Let money and time work for you, no matter your age.

The millionaire next door could be you.

All it takes is money and time; it always does. But what this really means is you have to save money over time, and that's where so many of us struggle.

Reaching age 65 with $1 million saved requires strong discipline and sustained effort. You need to recognize the importance of starting early and putting money away regularly. But even if you don't have as much time, you still have options other than a last-ditch Hail Mary pass.

More from MarketWatch.com:

• Key Strategies to Boost Your Retirement Savings

• Higher Tax Rates Loom for 401(k) Savers

• Bucket Strategies for Retirement Will Stick Around

It can be done -- even if you start with just $10,000.

"Whether you're 25 or 45 or even 55, you've got to start somewhere," said Nathan Dungan, founder of financial education firm Share Save Spend.

Call it a 7% solution. Assume a 7% inflation-adjusted return from a portfolio of U.S. and international stocks, bonds and cash -- not overly aggressive, but an expected return that requires taking some risk -- and living well within your means.

"In order to save, you have to understand your spending," said Eric Kies, a financial adviser with The Planning Center, an investment manager in Moline, Ill. "Build some awareness of where you are now, where do you want to be, and what are you willing to do to get there."

Of course there will be bumps along the road -- potholes, even, that challenge your resolve. The financial markets love to shake and stir individual investors; don't give up, because it may be hard to get back in

"It's less about where the money is invested and more about your ability to be disciplined," Dungan said. "Ask yourself, What is realistic? What can I achieve? The best savers don't have magical thinking about money. They're honest with themselves."

25 Years Old: Starting Out

Forty years is a long time. So long, in fact, that it's easy to put off saving for the future. There are bills to deal with, college debt to pay, stuff to buy, vacations to take, a career to build.

Savings -- sure, but who has money for that? Indeed, one of every three Americans between the ages of 18 and 33 have no personal savings, according to a recent Harris Poll survey. What's more, 53% of this age group has zero in the way of retirement savings.

They're missing out, big time. If a 25-year old with $10,000 invested $320 a month at a 7% annual compound rate of return until they turned 65, they would wind up with $1 million.

"There's a reason why Albert Einstein called compounding the most powerful force in the universe," said Jonathan Guyton, a principal at investment manager Cornerstone Wealth Advisors in Minneapolis.

Whether or not Einstein really said this, the math speaks for itself. At 7%, your money doubles every 10 years.

If saving a few hundred bucks a month seems daunting, rest assured it only gets worse. One way to make the job easier is to rely on your job -- specifically investing in your company's 401(k) plan and enjoy whatever contribution match your employer offers. Think of it as free money.

Don't have a 401(k)? Open a Roth IRA if you qualify, and automatically deposit money into it from your bank account to get tax-free growth.

35 Years Old: Early Innings

Ten years later, the price of waiting has been high. Not as costly as it will be, but tough enough. Instead of $320 a month, you're looking at saving $775 a month to turn that $10,000 into seven figures at a 7% annualized return.

Don't beat yourself. Just save. Funnel money into your 401(k) so you're not dipping into your own pocket for the full amount. Take the Roth IRA route if you can. By now you may have a young family -- so do it for the kids. Show them you not only can make money, but also know how to handle it.

"Children can be extremely good motivators to good financial habits," said Eleanor Blayney, consumer advocate for the CFP Board and a wealth adviser in McLean, Va. who specializes in financial planning for women.

Teach the kids sound money habits, and teach yourself at the same time. Said Blayney: "It induces you to be financially smart."

45 Years Old: Halfway Home

At 45, you're likely established in your career, with a decent salary. You may own a home, and the kids are thinking about college.

It's good you're making money, because you'll need to add $1,850 every month to that $10,000 base in order to reach $1 million in 20 years.

"There's a greater sense of urgency; your window for taking advantage of time is starting to close," Dungan said.

Yet one in four Americans between the ages of 46 and 64 have no retirement savings, the Harris Poll found. Another 22% have retirement savings mostly in bonds and savings accounts.

With so little saved at this point, you would do well to reevaluate your expectations for retirement. Are you saving and investing accordingly? You may have to weigh the purchases you make today versus a stable retirement.

"Now's your chance," Blayney said. "Don't blow it."

55 Years Old: Winding Down

At 55, the amount needed to reach $1 million with a $10,000 bankroll is both comical and sad: $5,700 a month for 10 years.

Maybe you've been living paycheck to paycheck, and life has been good. You've got a nice house, a fancy car -- but no savings.

In short, you have a big hat, but no cattle. The millionaire is next door, and he isn't knocking.

This is your moment of truth. You may not become a millionaire, but you can live like someone who is on the way to being one.

Here's how: Cut expenses, save what you can, and work longer.

"If a client is in their mid-50s and hugely behind, we start to focus on lowering expenses by paying off debt, restructuring debt, or lowering housing costs," said Guyton, the Minneapolis financial adviser.

"If that change lowers their expenses by $1,000 a month, that's more beneficial than helping them accumulate an extra $100,000," Guyton said. Indeed, cutting $12,000 a year from expenses equates to what roughly $175,000 in assets would produce at a 7% yield.

And take care of your health, Guyton added. You're going to need it in order to show up at work.

"It's a whole different matter when you have to stay on the treadmill," Guyton said. "We don't mince words. We try to make it manageable and realistic, but there are some options that aren't on the table anymore."

Monday, April 18, 2011

Comment By IBO "Robb"

Wow, i'm amazed at the lack of intelligence (and proper spelling and grammar - i know, i don't capitalize so i'm a hypocrite) on BOTH sides of this argument. first, a little background - i have a degree in chemical engineering and graduated first in my class. just saying this so you know i'm not an idiot.

Your comment: "You're buying products. That's not a form of making money. And you'll be spending way more for each, on average, than you ever will have before. Get it straight: You're simply becoming a consumer of a line of products and tools; Amway and the AMOs will make a healthy profit from all the cash you send them."

Answer: Yes, much like WalMart, McDonald's, Walgreens, Starbucks, etc. will make a healthy profit from all the cash you send them. The only difference here is that by buying Amway products, I'm not paying for advertisements. Amway never claimed to be a non-profit company - yes, they make money. if you don't like that, then grow up - it's business.
Second, my wife and I have tracked our product spending over the past several months, and we are NOT spending any additional money on Q products vs. what we spent before at other stores/restaraunts/etc. In fact, we're at the 12% bonus level, therefore getting 12% more back that we EVER did at those other places. oh, and our personal use (as a couple) is at 250PV, without spending any EXTRA money over what we used to spend...

And on the saturation idea, do your real world numbers mr. calculator... we are actually falling behind population growth, not overcoming it as you like to suggest. saturation is a complete myth. why are we falling behind? because 1) not a large percentage of people are seriously building an Amway business and 2) a lot of those who are use horribly vague and ineffective presentations. my sponsorship rate is over 50% (and climbing)... learn how to show a plan, and even the ones who don't become involved will have a positive idea of what Amway does.

And on the pyramid thing... geez, this one is so annoying... EVERY company pays a small cut the people who are responsible for getting a product or service into your hands. here, some of those steps have simply been replaced by other active IBO's. what we do is no different in concept than when an engineering firm owner hires 10 engineers (or contracts them) to go work on projects. he tell them "i'll pay you x% of each project you complete" and he keeps the rest... the only real difference is that Amway is a completely level playing field for everyone who gets in, whereas the owner of the engineering firm is always making the most amount of money... that's right, we're MORE FAIR and BETTER than most business payout structures. i create volume personally and contract out the rest. i pay people who create volume for me, they can do the exact same, and because of this they can pass me tomorrow! this can happen because if the volume that leg creates is greater than my entire group volume (minus leg A) then he makes more money than i do!!!! and don't say "well there's always someone at the bottom," because the de-saturation that is happening proves that they are either at the bottom by choice or because they are incapable of showing the plan to someone.

so why don't you try to go shut down walmart, starbucks, target, microsoft, etc. for their pyramid schemes? in reality, they are MUCH more like one than we are.


Friday, April 15, 2011

Amway IBO Comment?

All you negative people make me laugh!!! DO you relized that you work for a living? Do you relaize that you work for SOMEBODY? Do you realize you will not make more than your boss in the "position" you are at? Will your boss ever make mmore than his boss? Will anyone make more than the owner, president, or CEO of the company YOU WORK for as an emplyoee? I didn't think so.

Let me ask you this, why does a muti-billionaire like Robert Kiyosaki whom wrote New Yorks best selling book "Rich Dad Poor Dad" talk nothing but great things about Quixtar, Amway, Etc. The reason he does, is because he like that we are being shown how to become business owners, not sales peolpe. You will never get ahead in the E-Quadrant which is the emplyees status, or the S-Quad which is the sel-employeed people. They make a lot of money, but thier time belongs to someone else, and their is no gurantee that you have a job or brick and mortar business the very next day.

I wish these thumb-sucking negative weenies would get out of their pitty party and do something in life to help themselves and families instead of sucking the life out of positive go-getters that want the best for their families, and other families with this great opportunity from Quixtar.

Negative people are the bucket of crabs analogy. Have you ever seen a bucket of crabs that are miserable in eachothers company because they are confined, restricted, limited, have no FREEDOM? Then one day 1-crab out of 20 or 40 crabs looks up and sees opportunity when he sees the sky and the light, where there are no limits, the crab heads way for the top of th bucket and just as the crab reaches the top and sees and smells freedom...the crabs below reach up and grabs the crab that wants better than the ugly situation its in down there and pulls him right back into the misery.

Anyone who is reading this, put yourself in that crabs position, do you want life to pass you by and take you down, when you want to live life to its fullest for the better of yourself and your family ? Are you Man or woman enough to do what ever it takes to give your family and yourself your freedom?

JOHN - Silver in Amway

Thursday, April 7, 2011

Save 30% By Purchasing Through Amway?

One of the things I saw at an Amway presentation, and I believe many still tout this, that shopping with Amway will save you 30%. Of course, I have yet to see any price comparisons to verify this claim. In fact, I believe if you made an opposite claim, that shopping with Amway costs you 30% more, that would probably be more accurate. I believe that Amway recruiters make this claim because to the audience, it only makes sense to join Amway because you will save 30%. Unfortunately, it is a recruiting tactic. Simply walk down the aisles at Walmart and tell the audience with a straight face that you will save 30% on average, but purchasing from Amway instead of WalMart. WalMart boldly makes a claim that families shopping there regularly will save $2500 a year, which is more than the average IBO earns. Amway makes no such claim that I know of. I believe this is an LOS recruiting trick.

If you stop and think about it, Amway must charge at least 30% or more on top of their overhead and profit in order to pay the IBO bonuses. I sincerely doubt that Amway suffers losses to pay out bonuses. Add in shipping and the cost goes up. I believe that the save 30% by shopping with Amway is a myth. If not, I challenge IBOs to put forth a reasonable price comparison to prove me wrong. Where else would Amway get the money to pay those bonuses? I'm sure Amway is npt operating at a loss. Amway must charge more on average because the IBOs constitute layers and layers of middlemen which must be paid. This contradicts what some uplines show in their presentation where they claim that Amwa eliminates the middle man in the distribution process. More likely the opposite is true where they add more middlemen and cost more, whereas a store like Walmart will deal directly with the factories and obtain the best possible prices for their customers.

Walmart will match any advertised price for the same product in their stores. So if you see Walgreens selling a product at a certain price, you can get Walmart to match that price if you show them the printed ad. Try that with an IBO or with Amway and see your results....