Tuesday, December 9, 2008

How Many Diamonds Are There In Quixtar?

How many diamonds are there in Quixtar? I don't know. Nobody knows for sure except Quixtar and Quixtar isn't telling. I once emailed Quixtar to ask this question and I was told to ask the person who invited me to a meeting. IBOFightback recently wrote a post on his propaganda blog decrying Quixtar/Amway critics for creating an "echo chamber" effect where people searching for information will be mislead about how many diamonds there are in Quixtar. Of course, he doesn't criticize the corporation for not publishing this valuable and controversial piece of information.

On one of the Quixtar PR blogs, I posed a question (over a year ago) and Anna Bryce of Quixtar stated that there were 160 Diamondships in attendance to 2006 Diamond club. Assuming there were some absentees, there might be a few more than 160 Diamonds in Quixtar. 160+ Diamondships in nearly 50 years of existence is not much to get excited about. Also, in Quixtar, a diamond is not forever. Diamonds fall out of qualification, probably as often as a new one emerges.

IBOFightback talks about the thousands of people who may have achieved success thru this opportunity. He doesn't mention however, the MILLIONS who may have been harmed by participating in this wonderful opportunity, albeit possibly from a motivational organization and not necessarily from Amway, Quixtar or Alticor. Although the motivational organizations have mostly been allowed to operate freely to cause this harm, and blemish the corporation's reputation.

The point being missed here is that the more diamonds there are, it is likely that there will be more and more people who lose money. Nearly all diamonds that I know of hard sell their tapes, seminars and other support materials. Thus the more diamonds there are, the more downline, and probably more people on the system. The vast majority of people on the system lose money because of the system expenses. A lack of sales to non IBOs almost guarantees a loss for IBOs because the only way to increase volume without sales is to increase downline who then suffer the losses for you.

So does anyone really care about how many diamonds there are? If it's important enough, maybe Quixtar will publish it. Until then, the likes of IBOfightback and others are only guessing based on some of the numbers that Quixtar does reveal. The problem is the definition of an active IBO is from 2001, the average income is from another year, average diamond income is from 2005, yadda yadda yadda. Keep guessing, I'm done.


MichMan said...

Amway's whole Income Disclousure Statement is smoke and mirrors.

"The average monthly Emerald bonus is ....."

"The average monthly 4 percent bonus is .... The highest was .... The lowest was ...."

Nowhere does Amway state the high, low and average TOTAL Diamond income for each year.

And nowhere does Amway state how many Diamonds qualify each year.

Occasionally, someone will find an Amway statistic of a 12 month Diamond.

But nowhere is it posted how many of the qualified Diamonds actually hit 12 months per year.

In other words, it is nearly impossible to figure out how many of the "Diamonds" are in qualification and which ones are out of qualification....

(You know the ones. They are the people strutting across stage wearing more jewelry than Mr. and Mrs. T.)

rambling, but you get the idea

Joecool said...

Michman, I believe you are right. It the truth were good PR and/or enticing, I believe Quixtar would publish it. Instead, we get .012 are diamond and then left to guess that is the percentage of what?
But .012 is 12/100 of one percent which is dismal.

Anonymous said...

You'll have to take those complaints to the FTC. They are the ones that mandate the method of disclosure of that information. There are also many different ways to construct a business. So ther is no one direct answer. The "David Koresh" of Anti-Amway Bloggers accross the web, Eric Shiebler, claims that the most he made as an Emerald was 34K, and that he is still financially destitute and has never recovered from quitting his job, 10-20 years ago. Today a Q12 bonus check is 20K, Emrald SIP bonuses can be anywhere from 18K-85K and monthly incomes,of properly structured and balanced Emeraldship's should run a minimum of 5-6K. Then you have system income which in some cases can double that of their Amway monthly income. Or an Emerald can be a guy who recruited 3 guys to sell Ribbon to corporate accounts and his income is totally different than that.So that is an issue you need to ask at a higher level than your typical rum dum blogger or an Amway employee, you need to lobby higher up to allow "Pins" to blurt out their incomes. But the problem with that lies with non siuccessful IBO's that inflate everything.

Anonymous said...

One other point about percentages, just like in any company, the average is the composite of the best and the worst and all those in between. With a minimal start up cost of $200, there are a lot of goof balls that make it through the filter. Every one of us works or has worked at companies where only the very special few,climb to the tops of the pyramids. What percentage of GM workers make a 100K salary? Probably nearly identical.

Joecool said...

Anonymous, of course the average income varies, but Quixtar eliminated the "inactive" IBOs when they calculated that their average income was $115 a month. Why didn't they post the median income if they wanted a fair representation? Maybe the median income was not very flattering?

"Every one of us works or has worked at companies where only the very special few,climb to the tops of the pyramids."

**While this may be true, these companies don't tell you to come work for them sweeping floors and that if you never quit you will one day be a CEO.

MichMan said...

Anon said: Emrald SIP bonuses *can* be anywhere from 18K-85K and monthly incomes, of *properly structured* and *balanced* Emeraldship's *should* run a minimum of 5-6K. Then you have system income which *in some cases* can double that of their Amway monthly income.

Can? Should? If properly structured? If balanced? And in some cases?

A properly constructed Income Disclosure Statement would cut through all of that bs and give the facts.

And you are wrong. The FTC does not tell Amway that they have to disclose income information in a confusing and convoluted way.

MonaVie (which I am not a part of and do not recommend) provides those figures very clearly.

Google MonaVie and "Income Disclosre Statement" and you will find it posted on the web.

IBOFB once posted this document on his website as a positive example of what Amway should do. Months later Orrin Woodward and TEAM went to MonaVie. Now he and the others think the document is deceitful. Go figure.

MichMan said...

Annon said: One other point about percentages, just like in any company, the average is the composite of the best and the worst and all those in between.

But percentages at least tell most of the story.

Amway could provide lots more US data like they were forced to by the regulators in the UK. But I don't think that will happen.

Amway was forced to admit that out of the tens of thousands who joined over a six year period, the TOP TWELVE averaged about $179 pounds per week of income.

And those were the TOP TWELVE! Obviously the rest of the 20,000-30,000 did even worse.

Anyway, I think we all would like to see Amway release that kind of data for the US instead of the vague income data they publish.

But I don't think that will happen without a court order.

Anonymous said...

And not every Upline tells an IBO when they come in that if they just simply never quit they will be a huge success. And the person that would believe that, if they did, is not every smart to begin with. That's similar to the upline that tries to claim that simply buying tools will cause you to be successful. It's harder to figure out who is a bigger idiot; the guy who tries to teach that theory or the guy who believes it. If an Emerald with 150-200 people, is only making a solid 60-80K a year, and that income is a side income on top of their career, how does that compare tothe median professional or blue collar workers side income? If a good Emerald with 300-500 people is making 150-250K and they choose to make that a full time pursuit, then how does that compare to the median professional or blue collar, working a fulltime occupation,wondering if he is getting a pink slip in the near future and will be spending the next 6 months on credit and Monster.com? The current US Family Median Household income is not very flattering, in case you haven't noticed.

Anonymous said...

And even though Quixtar eliminated "Inactive" IBO's fromthe mix, there is an overwhelming number of active IBO'sthat do nothing. Amway only considers you inactive if you have made no purchases or attended any meetings for 6 consecutive months. That can also include thousands who sign up on infatuation and compulsion and never do one thing with the business. I've signed up a fair share of those in my career. Still, it doesn't change the proper path that ones needs to address that concern to,the FTC. It also does not change the fact that you can buildan Eric Shiebler type Emeraldship and make no more than 34K or a $225-300K+ Emeraldship. That does include stystem money also,which is a cat that has been out of most organizations bags for a decade now. In fact the Markiewicz/Winters teams were the first to include it in their board plans starting back in 2000 or so.

Gina said...

Again need I point out the obvious...Income checks do not automatically equate to profit. So while a check of 20k may look good on paper if the expenses exceed that then its not so good anymore. Again, taking us right back to the importance of a well kept P/L.
Why in the world would anyone base the validity of a business opportunity on what checks are issued? That doesn't even make sense. Rational thought and logic seem to be in short supply for so many IBO's.

Joecool said...

Anonymous, if you have people signing up on compulsion and infatuation, maybe your presentation is too much fluff and not enough substance. YOu are selling them on dreams and not a business.

And as Gina notes, your gross income means nothing. After taxes and business and life expenses such as medical insurance is subtracted, how much is left? Average diamond income of $146,000 become a very middle class income when you factor in a lot of these things.

Anonymous said...

Not necessarily Joe. Sure there are goof ball Open meetings where there is nothing but hype and fluff, and the people that get roped into making decisions on obvious hype and fluff, generally don't have the maturity or savvy to make it in any business.Most of the presentations I see today are more subdued and logical and tend to attract a little bit up the scale so to speak.Sure you have the idiots out there, trying to do Perfect Water "Tip Testing", but that's not the average. (pretty funny youtube stuff though) As far as your comment Gina, that is no different than getting hired by a corporation for 60,70,80 or 100K. The salary on your offer letter doesnot reflect taxes, living expense, etc. And every one,depending on a variety of factors pays a different amount of taxes. Amway is in no way a tax benefit, but if you build a proper business and follow the rules, you'll generally pay less in tax than a traditional 9-5 job. Keep in mind also that the $146K average, does not include system money, which as I mentioned, many presentations, especially Winters Team, has been promoting that at there open meetings. There was a guy named Greg Francis who went Diamond at 32 after 5 years, and his first year Diamond income was about 450K+. I think he made over 300 as an Emerald. And as far as stability, Amway doesn't appear to be in line for and "Bail Out" money right now. But granted, it's hard work and not in everyones "DNA" so to speak. Doesn't amke one a loser because they don't succeed, just means they either didn't apply themselves, follow the system, or wasn't the proverbial "Cup-o-tea" for them.

mike said...

Anon states "And not every Upline tells an IBO when they come in that if they just simply never quit they will be a huge success. And the person that would believe that, if they did, is not every smart to begin with. That's similar to the upline that tries to claim that simply buying tools will cause you to be successful. It's harder to figure out who is a bigger idiot;"

Larry Winters a high level pin, had a licence plate that read simply "Don't Quit" He also used the phrase "You can tell how your business is growing by the tool flow..The tools come first then the PV follows"

You speak of the income an emerald makes but what is their operating expense.

Gina said...

Obviously Anonymous, you never had a salaried job. First, my example is just like getting a job for 50k, 80k or even 100k a year, but they do consider taxes in that if asked. All you have to do is ask as the prospective employee. They will give you a break down to what you will be paid BEFORE you agree to anything, gross and net. If you decide not to ask then one would hope it is because you are intelligent enough to figure out what taxes will be...general rule of thumb is 1/3. You just basically proved my point. Anyone who is thinking of changing jobs considers these factors as well as the distance of the office to home and how long it will mean for a commute, mileage on the car, gas, and wear/tear. These are all things that also need to be taken into account with any business but yet so many IBO's don't track. This is my point...expenses NEED to be considered. Income is not automatically profit. Again taking us right back to an accurate P/L and B/S.
And while small businesses tend to pay less taxes that an employee, it can and generally does balance out with the cost of doing business for the small business owner, which is higher than any cost incurred by an employee in taxes or commuting to work. This is why small business owners are given tax incentives...because the cost of doing business is high. Even for IBO's...they just don't know it because they don't track it.
Please feel free to prove us wrong by presenting your accurately kept P/L and B/S.

Joecool said...

Many IBOs are taught to ignore these issues that Gina brings up. They are taught this because if IBOs paid attention to their gas bill and other associated expenses, many or most of the IBOs would notice that they are taking losses.

How some uplines smooth this over is to tell IBOs not to get "detail-itis", and that if they just do what they are told, they will earn untold wealth and be able to pat for all of these things easily.

Anonymous said...

Gina, I certianly don't want this to turn into a nasty "pissing" match,but at 39, I've had several Salaried jobs and currently work for a major, well known, IT firm as a an Account Manager and Sales Trainer and I carry a $123K salary as we speak. I have also owned small business's during my career from a Cell Phone store to a Employment out placement firm. So I have livedon both sides of the fence. I also maintain a Founders Emeraldship and my 4th leg pops in and out of Platinum Qualification from time to time. My Amway income last year,combined with my tool income was over the 200K level and when I finish tracking the Founders Emerald bonus in August,I will recieve a check from Amway,seperate from System money and monthly bonuses and a $20K Q12bonus for $150K. At that point I plan on giving up my corporate status and my salaried job, next Christmas. I've been out of debt,other than my mortgage for 3 years and I've been piling away money and buying a few investment properties along the way.See,unlike Eric Shiebler,I didn't hit Platinum income with a fake Emerald pin and quit my job and spend the next 20 years complaining that I'm "decimated"

With that said, I have never had an offer letter presented to me with anything other than the "Pre Tax" amount. When I have hired people for our company, I usually only get a question about tax amounts or mileage and gas from new college grads. Professionals know enough to realize they have to pay taxes and that we, as a company, are not concerned with your gas and mileage on your car when we offer to place you on a project.You either want the job, ignore the facts, and accept, or you let details be your downfall. Much like the comment about Amway people,ignore the details and chase your dreams. That is not an Amway thought process, that is a Bill Gates, Chris Gardner, Michael Dell thought processor the thought process of anyone who has overcome great odds to build a successful traditional business enterprise.

Noone that I have ever encountered can provide proof or offer a valid explanation of how Amway caused them any harm. It always comes back to people making bad decisions while in Amway.Since Al Gore "invented" the internet and chat rooms were the rage in the world of dial up, there has been countless "profits" of doom, predicting Amway's demise and downfall through seemingly "Mafia-esq" business practices and they are still up and running.

Anonymous said...

"Many IBOs are taught to ignore these issues that Gina brings up. They are taught this because if IBOs paid attention to their gas bill and other associated expenses, many or most of the IBOs would notice that they are taking losses.

How some uplines smooth this over is to tell IBOs not to get "detail-itis", and that if they just do what they are told, they will earn untold wealth and be able to pat for all of these things easily."

Joe, Much of what Gina is just simply inaccurate. Posting on a blog makes it no more correct than anything that I say. Companies do not sit down and offer up all your living expenses in an offer letter. That is all determined when you have already been hired and fillout all your tax forms on day one.

There is only partial truth in what you said as well. I have never heard "promises of untold wealth, by ignoring the facts" I would also bee a littleleary of any upline that did tell me that. I am a big proponent of not getting "caught up" in details, yet at the same time, not ignoring them. If you won't go do what you have to because you're concerned about gas prices, then you're not a good candidate for this business or any other that will cause you to pay a great price for success. Perhaps one of the reasons I've enjoyed the level of success that I have over the past decade, is due to the fact that I deal with prospects in the same manor and we tend to attract a brighter clientel, with more of an initial preparation for success coming into business.

Anonymous said...

Actually, Gina was partially righ and I was partially wrong in not realizing what she may have meant. In 1996, I was offered a job in Silicone Valley and in 2001 I was offered a job selling DSL for Worldcom. Both times I asked the Recruiter for cost of living comparisons to where I was, an in both cases it was not worth the pay raise. They did not however tellme whatmy taxes would be,yet only could offer me the rates. They were not aware of my deductions and wether I would self incorporate and operate as a 1099 employee. But there was a Salary offer that was strictly Pre-Tax, for "X" amount of dollars. So My apologies if that is exactly what you meant to say.

Joecool said...

Anonymous, I don't believe most of us critics claim that we share no responsibility in making decisions that may have been faulty.

That being said, many of us were sponsored by trusted uplines who were friends or trusted acquaintances who said to trust them and do as they advise and we will succeed.

Many of us did exactly that only to find out that there was a lot of bad and self serving advice advice given by upline leaders.

And Gina is right, many leader do teach IBO's to ignore their losses and expenses as away to have the IBO's not realize they were sufferung losses while they thought they were successful.

Anonymous said...

"Many of us did exactly that only to find out that there was a lot of bad and self serving advice advice given by upline leaders."

Well, I will agree with you on this point. My old original upline gave me a lot of "crack pot" advice that made no sense whatsoever. I eventually went around him to a competent person. I have also seen cases of poor selfish upline that has ruined downline organizations to prevent the downline from taking too much of their tool break. Those people deserve to be kicked out of the business and thier lack of moral fiber, usually catches up to them and gets exposed at some point. But I've never seen Amway come in and take advantage of an IBO. But I've also seen that in all aspects of corporate America and the shady office politics that people use to climb over the backs of others in their own self interest.

Joecool said...

In my group, the platinum would say that the diamond gave him the advice and possibly, it was also on a tape. For example, a true north tape spoke about how you cannot cancel a standing order. You simply have to eat it because it was too much trouble to call upline who calls upline to cancel the standing order.

As I said, IBOs could quit over this issue, but many or most trusted their upline and kept going.

Gina said...

First of all Gina is right on...you would just rather that I not be.
So, what part of if you ask for the net salary amount, they will provide it for you wasn't clear? For that matter, what part of 1/3 for taxes is the standard rule of thumb wasn't clear? There are even websites that offer salary calculations based on a number of factors. So clearly you have no clue what you are talking about.

But lets get back to the topic shall we...INCOME is NOT PROFIT. So while 150k a year from Amway may look good on paper, the problem that many have and Mr. Schlieber(sp?) was pointing out, is that for so many people expenses exceed that income. On top of that, so many find out that the expenses exceed the income only after years of not tracking them at all but deciding to start because once a certain level was reached they were under the very misguided impression that the money would be great, but yet it still wasn't.

You can continue to beat around the bush all you want, but telling us that your salary is x but never addressing what your expenses are lends itself to the fact that you have no idea what your expenses are and that you are lying. Which goes to show that you are just another IBO who most likely didn't go to college and most certainly never have, do not now, nor never will have a high paying salaried job. You say things that you think will lend credibility to your off the wall comments...because with Amway it is all about LOOKING better than you really are.

I will say it again...simply present an accurate P/L and B/S for your "company" that proves that your income is greater than your expenses proving how profitable the Amway "opportunity" is despite what so many others have experienced.

Anonymous said...

Gina, I can see where this is headed,much in the same direction that all other individuals with strong anti-Amway foundational beliefs tend to take. It's like a Christian arguing with an Athiest, neither side has a desire to see that others point of view. I myself,like you, gain no special benefit from trying to prove a point, especially when neither of us has offered any proof to the other that we don't serve fries at Burger King. You've done nothing or offered evidence to your degree of credibility that would justify me posting my filed tax returns to you. So to continue this frustrating mental square dance would only prove futile. You don't get many people such as myself on here, because quite frankly, people like myself usually don't spend any time on these boards. I have been drawn into this by foolishly subscribing to a Google Alert. If and when you can offer me proof of your companies offer letter and contract that not only states your current salary, but what, without you ever having filled out a tax document for HR,you State, Local and Federal taxe amount will be,and that offer letter shall also include your living expenses including annual estimated gas, food, electric and clothing expense, then I shall consider the same. But I feel we both know what the chance of that happening will be. I refuse to speculate on your professional status, because for all I know you are a CEO of a Fortune 500 company and an Ivy League College Grad with Honors, possibly a Doctor or Lawyer. But this blog is your world not mine. So I wish you the best and refuse to get into a sophmoric banter. I was merely stating what I believed to be fact and as of yet you've offered no proof to the contrary. This will be my last post on this subject, so there is no need to attempt fostera response form me. Untill you can provide that offer letter there is no point in continuing.

Oz said...

I'd just like to mention that I, for one, am quite impressed with this particular "Anonymous". His approach is far better than the general "U losers quit!" that we usually come across.

Thank you for that Anon, perhaps you'd be willing to type in your first name using the "Name/URL option" in the future (It doesn't require registering with Blogger or anything)...it just be nice to put a name with the thoughts.

Gina said...

Comprehension issues or just plain inability to read??? I never asked for a tax return of any kind. A P/L and a B/S are not tax returns, and if you are in fact running your so called business legitimately and know for a fact it is profitable you would know what these are and would keep them and refer to them on a daily basis, but clearly you do not.
So you have proved my point...income is not profit and the problem with so many IBO's as yourself, is that they will defend their opportunity without having any knowledge or facts. You are incapable of providing any information to the contrary and that is why you have resorted to the classic pre-programmed defense of "you haven't provided any proof so I will not."

Salary.com is a widely used website that calculates salaries based on location, industries in the area, job title, duties, vacation, taxes, heath care, EVERYTHING there is to consider in a myriad of jobs. I also know as a fact that if you ask the HR dept at the prospective employer for a breakdown of your prospective salary that it will be given because I have done just that for a few prospective employees I was looking to hire over the years in owning my own profitable business. Owning my own business for many years is also how I know what I and so many other business owners need to do in order to be profitable. You on the other hand are talking about a cover letter, which by the way is extremely out dated so one can only assume that it is more rhetoric handed by your upline, and not addressing the very valid question of expenses to income.
Of course you will never respond again, we all know that and expect nothing less because all that means is that you have no facts thus no way of discussing the issues presented. Three year olds tend to have the same kind of reaction.

Anonymous said...

"I'd just like to mention that I, for one, am quite impressed with this particular "Anonymous". His approach is far better than the general "U losers quit!" that we usually come across."

I appreciate that Oz. I've stated before,that just because a person quits, does not make them a "loser". As an Emerald, I have had many people fade away from my organization over the years and I am still friends with many of the people that I spent a great deal of time with.

To the contrary, I know many people who STAY in Amway for years and years and pretend to be business owners and drain their bank accounts, put their families through financial grief and never do anything to change. Those people are losers just as much as the people who quit and then blame everyone else ("my upline", "tool kingpins" "Rich & Jay" etc..) but themselves for their failures.

I started at the bottom as just a prospect who was "cold contacted", at the bottom of the pyramid. I spent 3-4 times as much money as I made during the first 2-3 years. But having owned other business in the past,I wasn't spending nearly what my previous overhead had been.

Now today, as a qualified Founders Emerald, and having been a Q12 qualifier for several years, it has paid off 100's of times over. That, coupled with the fact that I chose not to prematurely walk away from my job, has put my family in a nice situation.

I won't put my actual first name on the site, because once I do, people in my group will know who I am and then I have to either 1)Deal with the embarassment that I was on one of these sites or 2) I'll have downline who banter on here and over-inflate my level of success.

Successful IBO's as a rule,never get on these boards. They don't have the time of really care about any of it because this stuff has existed since the dawn of the net and chat rooms were the rage. The only Ibo's you typically see on here,are just what you described, and I garuntee you that practically everyone of them is having no success whatsoever.

Likewise, extremely successful people who got out of the business,have better things to do than to banter on here. They have a life and families and have better things to do than to pretend to be the master mind who will bring Amway to it's knees.

I believe it was Mark Cuban in Business 2.0 who when asked his opinions on Bloggers said, "In today's internet,anyone can be a David Koresh and develop their own little virtual cyber cult.I place very little signifigance on what a blogger says."

I only slipped on here because I "Google Alerted" Amway and I've been battleing the flu for about a week and a half. Made for a miserable Vegas trip.

Have a good Christmas!

Gina said...

Yet more indication that this is another IBO who WANTS people to believe they are something they so clearly are not.

Who in Amway teaches that if one has a profitable business they wouldn't go onto blogs or other chat forums because they would be to busy with their family??? Truly successful people in any walk of life find time for everything they want to do...family, business, internet, hobbies, travel, shopping ect. Clearly the problem with IBO's is that they have no idea how to focus on various aspects of their lives because they have been taught to abandon everything else and focus on their so-called business.

Anytime an IBO who claims to be profitable wants to prove otherwise, simply present a P/L...not a tax return, but a P/L and we critics will have nothing else to blog about. Simple solution to a simple problem.

Joecool said...

I believe some upline want their downlines to avoid crosslining or searching the internet because they don't want their downline IBOs to find the truth. The truth would likely make people want to leave the business. It's why there is a lot of half truths or outright lies used when IBOs are recruiting prospective IBOs.

Levi said...

Gina, regardless if the one person does show you what you are looking for it would not stop the fun you are having blogging away about your beliefs. You feel strongly in your convictions and so do we unless you can actually have a decent conversation in which 2 people can view eachothers side and reason to believe both may have credible sides without either being the poster child for thier party. please check my profile which ironicly is something i cant do on you i wonder why???

Anonymous said...

Unfortunately Gina presents herself much in the same way that a lot of IBO's that just get on here and call everyone losers. Reading through Gina's responses, I would guess that Profit/Loss and Balance Sheet statements are terms that she has heard her professor mention so many times that it sounds like the "Grown up Business Person" thing to say. I would assume she is probably a bank teller or someone who has been in the workforce one or two years and has either lost a boyfriend or social partner to Quixstar and is resentful. There is no reason to debate Gina,for it is pointless. Anyone who knows anything about running a moderately succcessful Amway business realizes that the business model it's self,from a record keeping standpoint, does not typically keep that type of info. I have had an accountant run prepare my quarterlies since Platinum and I have never had to prepare any of those documents. I just know that after Platinum I never made less than I spent.

Joecool said...

Anonymous, Gina is talking about real business practices. That's why it sound foreign to most IBOs because they only know the fluffy side of the business that upline teaches, such as fake it till you
make it.

Levi said...

Awe joe did we insult your girlfriend? Yeah she is talking about real business where you have to keep track of and organize everything. thats called small business. we are big business. Like it or not we dont care. go take your girlfriend out and buy her something nice. Its Christmas.

Joecool said...

LOL- buying from yourself and having one downline is not a big business, Levi. And tracking your
profit and loss is important in all business. Did you upline tell you to ignore your losses? Success is right around the corner?
Fake it till you make it?

At least I have cash for gifts. I didn't waste it on seminar tickets. LOL

Levi said...

I will inform you of this one final time. My upline don't determine anything. my thoughts my veiws are a collection of information gathered from all walks of life and many beliefs. even people like you teach me a thing or two that i will carry on with me. Quitting though will not be one of them. and Facts Yes Amway is big business and no in this business those paperwork you speak of is taken care of and we get our reports in a different matter. Please Understand this. you don't have to accept it but it is the way it is. Oh and one more thing one week ago i checked your profile and you were 21 now you are 31 are you looking for more credibility just as you say Ibo's misrepresent thier real income? Post It

Levi said...

You are really brainwashed kid, I have stated many times that i do not attend meetings or buy tools and no Big Business is not selling products and having one downline. It is the concept. you are actually transparent to most of us. You are just angry and when you dont have anything to come back on you use old comments we have already defeated. Gina on the other hand uses something that is not there so really she could use that forever. But we don't really care. So many people get on here only knowing the half about life and think that their personal veiws should be everyone elses and what happened to them must be what happened to everyone. Grow up.

Joecool said...

It's the concept? Haha, Amway works great on paper but not in real life. Care to share how well you're doing Levi? What about your downline?

Dayton Platinum said...

I always love these sites.

I went to a weekend coonference and I heard a fairly big "pin" talking about the blogs as the new filtering system. He also has a printed list of about 10 sites that you can give to prospects, (this was one) along with 10 sites Pro Amway.

This guy freely gives them to prospects at the end of an open and asks that they visit each one of the 20 sites, before they sit down on the follow up.

According to the Emerald, this gives you a good gauge on where the mindset of the prospect is.

The Emerald, Doug, tells the prospect, "If you choose to believe more of the sites that critisize us, yet provide no viable references as to the credentials of the authors over the CEO's and Business leaders that highly endorse us, then this business is not for you.

If you choose those that speak favorably of Amway, then while I cannot garuntee you that it is for you, I will at least sit down with you and discuss further."

I loved the question, "How many Diamonds are there?" Not many.

Why is that the measuring stick of a good business model? I know of no Diamonds that make less than $300,000. Although I'm sure there are.

Lets ask, "How many PLatinums are there that amke anywhere from $1700 to $4000 a month and get the $20K end of year Q12 checks....Plenty.

How does that back up plan compare to a hope and a prayer for a company bailout?

Joecool said...

Dayton: Why is that the measuring stick of a good business model? I know of no Diamonds that make less than $300,000. Although I'm sure there are.

Joe: Quixtar/Amway reports that the average diamond earns $146,000. There must be plenty of diamonds making less than $300,000.

Dayton: Lets ask, "How many PLatinums are there that amke anywhere from $1700 to $4000 a month and get the $20K end of year Q12 checks....Plenty.

Joe: Depends on your definition of plenty. There are far more platinums who are not Q12 than those who are.

P.S. I am honored that I made the list of sites given out by the emerald.

Levi said...

Wow Joe you really are dense. Do you really think I have to prove my buisness sucess to you? you would need Bank transcripts, profit and expense trails, list of my downline and their own words and how they are doing but you will never be satisfied once you find out that we are doing great and the business has actually gown more since the launch of the campaign. I made my sucess by hard work and a never quit additude on top of utilizing retail sales to make a profit. I teach my downline to do the same and they realize a profit in the same month they sign up. so your ratio of Amway is only true becuase anyone is allowed in this business regardless of IQ so the average JOE can get in and think he should belive the hype about you have to spend money to make money and wonder why a year later they are 5000 dollars in expenses lost and dont want to renew. Stupid, It's direct sales sell your products get a profit, get a profit incur an expense. But the Income must be the first goal. My business men and women do this and are succssful. you and your so called eagle parimiters ( which is a joke) on the other hand are successful for everyone but you.

Levi said...

And how much does the Average JOE make? only as much as His Boss allows. Keep punching the time clock my friend someone has to do it but it won't be me.

Joecool said...

Levi, this is a blog. Nobody is "forcing you" to prove anything. I wonder sometimes why anonymous IBOs are so reluctant to discuss their incredible success?

If you don't wish to talk about it, that's up to you. Sometimes I think you make a bettercase for me by not talking. LOL

Yes, you sell products for a profit. Levi, why do so few IBOs actually sell products? Are they stupid?

HOw much does the average Joe make? I'm not sure but it's a LOT MORE than the average IB

Levi said...

yep, thats true joe. you make more than the average IBO. but my point is I can nor can any IBO really prove anything in this day and age where anything can be forged or just simply lied about. so rather than get in to that controversy I dont see why you need to know my income. I make money to pay my bills and further my business. what are my bills? what are my business expenses? You would be stupid to belive if i told you. anyone can just make up anything but instead I have tried to give actual ways and solutions to how I did get my sucess only to be shot down by the nay sayers with thier statistics. but no one has given me yet a statistic that has 100% rating in wich i would fall into. you and everyone keep giving me statistics of 75% to 95% in which i fall into the smaller portion of the equation.

Joecool said...

You're right Levi. You can tell me you make a million dollars and you may or may not be truthful.

But wait, let's take Quixtar/Amway's numbers. IBOs make $115 a month on average. And Amway even removed "inactive" IBOs from that count to make it look more lucrative.

$115 a month? Kids delivering newspapers make more than that. Someone earning 10 bucks an hour working 3 houts a week makes more money than that.

You're right Levi, we don't need to discuss your own numbers, let's use Amway's numbers!

Levi said...

problem is i am not the average IBO but joe we have already established this.

Joecool said...

Well Levi, we have already established that some IBOs make money is Quixtar/Amway. You could very well be one of them. Still the vast majority of IBOs do not profit. This post is for them.