Joe,
I believe that I have covered this on a couple occasions as an "Anonymous" poster but here again....
By the way, one of the things that gets glossed over, time after time on this site and others, is that, in many organizations the "System Income" is incorporated into the 6-4-2 at the open meetings. Although not specific, for various intangibles based on structure and balance. Amway has been trying to come up with a compensation plan that rivaled the systems bonus plans, in an futile effort to draw more loyalty to the corporation, rather than the teams that IBO's belong to.
Think of Teams in terms of Unions and Amway as the corporation. The Growth Incentive Bonuses, 20K Q12 and 150K & 500K Founder Diamond and Emerald Bonuses are efforts in that direction.
In my organization, and I will also remind you that in an earlier posting, that triggered a girl named Gina to start demanding to see P&L statements and Balance Sheets, that I knew of the system income at the outset and was determined to be earn the right through performance, to participate in the revenue sharing plan.
Breaks and bonuses based on tool flow begin at the Platinum level and go up to greater percentages at Sapphire, Emerald, Emerald with 4 & 5 Platinum legs and then Diamond. Function attendance bonuses begin at Emerald.
It is very possible and in my case true, that an IBO with a properly balanced and structured business will make considerably more in the revenue sharing plan through the team than trough Amway's bonuses. However with the new Amway bonuses, that is not as much of a certainty.
This is not the "big secret" that I believe that most bloggers think they are exposing like Jack Bauer at CTU. It's pretty well known. When the Dateline program hit the airwaves several years ago, I lost 2 people from it. both of those people were perpetual "Founders 65 PV'ers". Most everyone else was reaction was "Oh, we already knew that, because it's in the plan every week"
As I have said before also, the other thing that is ignored in this long running debate, is that every Platinum, Emerald or Diamond, started at ZERO and received no special inside favors to earn their way up the ladder. Totally opposite from corporate America and current state of the economy today.
Look, Amway has it flaws, many of them and the systems have theirs as well, but what doesn't? If you want to really do something constructive, why not focus on those that abuse their privilege while in the system, like the Cincinnati Emerald that had about 10 affairs and ripped downline off with bad business deals and owes more than 100 k to a family that he got to go into kiosk deals and a bridal shop. These are the people that need to be exposed.
May 28, 2009 7:11 AM
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Joe's commentary: Anonymous, thank you for what appears to be a reasonable and believeable answer. I understand that some systems talk about their system income with IBOs. My bigger issue is that the systems that do talk about system income are not specific about how you qualify and how much you qualify for at various levels. At least I do not know of an IBO who has a written compensation plan.
The even bigg issue, is that there is, as far as I know, zero evidence that the system actually works for anyone. Take my former LOS for example, WWDB. How many diamonds have emerged since I left Amway? A handful? But keep in mind that more than a handful have dropped out since I left as well. If they went backwards, what good is this wonderful system? Same goes for other LOS's in the US.
15 comments:
Joe, I agree that one of the big flaws in the business, are the systems that still try to treat the system income as information that requires a top secret security clearance to learn about.
I do not, nor have I ever believed that there is anything wrong with the income it's self. My attitude was always, just tell me what it is, and how I qualify for it, and then let me decide if I want to work that hard.
Those systems that still try to operate as if it were 1972, are missing the boat and have lost a great deal of credibility with their people.
IBO's are better informed coming into the business today than the IBO's of yesterday.
I still consider the cost of motivational material & functions to be a much better value...TO THE PERSON WHO DESIRES TO BUILD A SUCCESSFUL BUSINESS AND APPLIES THE EFFORT, than a Red Hot Chilli Peppers CD or a Bruce Springsteen concert, or even an overpriced college text book that your professor makes a percentage off of from a book company then the book store buys back at an obscene rate and sells it for almost full price again.
However, if an IBO never applies themselves to building the business, but merely buys some PV and hangs around in the Amway social club, then they have the same value as those.
Well thought out answer, Anon, good show. The sad thing is exactly like Joe said. The unfortunte thing is that whether you become successful or not essentially depends on intangibles. One is told to simply 'show the plan' and it will grow if you read, listen, and learn. But there are those who did (and do) follow those steps and are still unsuccessful. Some of them after near relgious effort and many years in the business.
I agree with your statement that structure is indeed important, in fact I think it's KEY in order to build any sort of substantial income in any MLM with a variable structure in terms of the placement of prospects. Some teams have differing goals and methods than others which no doubt can either augment or greatly negate a prospect's long term chances. The biggest issue is simply that not everyone can join, follow the 8 or 9 team player steps and go diamond.
If one is not cut out for MLM, or even AMquix, that simply doesn't mean they are a quitter, they may simply NOT be cut out for that sort of thing.
I had mentioned the 5'2" basketball player and the 6'5" gymnast on another of Joe's blogs. Clealy with those dimensions, not really suited for the sports that they enrolled. Not everyone is suited for everything in the world, and one isn't a loser if they recognize this fact and cut their loses early. And of course with quite a bit of negative circulating out there, can you blame people for feeling they way that they do? Remember that some of the people who have negative things to say about Amquix where simply victims of the bad teaching from other teams. If you have success, and you have a system that works, why get upset when people are commenting about another's system?
If Amquix works for you, great, I do wish you all the best and hope it continues that way. Then you have something that other prospects need to see. I would surmise that the vast majority of the teams out there are simply blowing smoke up the collective heinies of the public.
Anonymous,
I appreciate your comments and civil discussion on the matter. As I said, I agree with much of what you said. My biggest issue is the secrecy about the system income, and when big pins promote a life of luxury - obtained by Amway income and downplaying the role of tool income.
I also agree that the system needs to be applied. The issue though, is that unethical behavior by many former IBOs created a big handicap for today's IBOs.
And I agree with Mr. Max, that not everyone is cut out to be an IBO and they should not be shunned if that is their choice.
First, I am not a girl...I am a woman. Second, what exactly was addressed here? That you knew that you stood to make money off the tools? Many of us bloggers are not complaining on that regard but rather the amount that is made, the fact that these people state clearly from stage about how rich they are from Amway when in fact Amway is not the only reason, they show large checks but fail to ever show the expenses tied to that seemingly impressive check, the fact that all these tools seem to be nothing more than motivation rather than actual useful business building information like how to accurately keep a P/L. Do you teach your downline about the basics of business like a P/L and a B/S, cost of goods sold, depreciation, how to accurately account for travel, meals, office supplies ect?
My issues are simple with the corp and the IBO's involved...First, I have yet to meet an honest IBO who discloses all the information from the start, they always beat around the bush. When I ask to see financials they get defensive...why? If you are asking someone to invest in one way or another, into your biz and to do as you say or duplicate or what have you, then why not provide the proof that it does in fact work? (not to mention that it would certainly shut so many of us critics right up) Which leads me to my second issue...if it does work as many IBO's claim and is not a shot in the dark at making money then why the hesitation to show an accurate P/L? Its like me selling a car and telling the potential buyer how well it runs but refuse to let him turn the key in the ignition. What is there to hide? If you know anything about business then you know that this is not private information....no one is asking how much your mortgage is....although most often times, IBO's offer that information without even being asked, so I don't see nor understand how one can justify giving personal finacial information in some cases but not others.
My next issue is that Amway themselves seem to have a real lack at enforcing their rules when it has effected someone other than themselves. They pretend to be taking these accusations of unethical IBO's seriously but then do nothing. And TEAM doesn't count as a viable example...too many holes in both sides stories. It seems that Amway is selective and that is wrong.
So in the end, the point is that finacials should be an automatic, and if people are made millionaires by selling Amway then that would prove it. Why not share them? Do you tell your reqruits that they stand to make a huge amount of money from tools? Do you tell them that once they start purchasing products through their own business for personal use that it is not a sale and the subsequent check for those particular items is not profit? Do you have them or even encourage them to track their expenses? Do you enforce or encorage the retail sales rule? Do you yourself even abide? I can go on....but you get the idea.
You want to be taken seriously, then be straightforward, honest, and transparent, just because you think you have disclosed information and answered questions doesn't mean you have. I can tell you that my business did $4mil last year... Not so much so after you figure expenses, but what so many IBO's do is tell recruits about that big number and neglect to mention expenses.. many even go as far as to say that there are no expenses...and that is decietful and I do not believe, despite your good show here, that you are any different. I don't believe that anyone can manke anything like the kind of money that is clamied unless you own the system...so many supposed diamonds and upper levels have quit, have gone into bankrupcy ect. There is no proof of these income claims and you are no different.
It seems like the complexities of the compensation systems and bonuses make the abuses possible. Why should someone who participates need top security clearance to see or even fully understand what is going on? Tracy Coenen describes the compensation systems as being incomprehensible in some of her writings on her Fraud Files blog. Amway isn't alone here. Most of the other MLM compensation systems operate like voo doo as well. These mysterious systems allow much of the compensation money to go to those very small amount of upper echelon kingpins near the top, while the majority are simply bamboozled by it all or only see a very small piece of the action! Indeed this is the rub which alarmed former Amway Emerald, Eric Scheibler, and most likely helped bring the tool scam to light on NBC's Dateline.
It still amazes me that Eric is the poster boy for the "Whistle Blowers Society". Eric was a very weakly structured Emerald, as eveidenced by his own admission to having never made more than 37K in the business. An amount that is easily surpassed by many Platinums, even in his day. When the Dateline piece showed clips of his "Retirement Day", it looked as if it were in the very early 90's or late 80's, judging by the limo and surrounding scenes. Eric quit his job at 37K, apparently still had not recovered, some 10 years later when the Dateline piece aired, "We're still financially destitute" was his exact quote I believe.
He made a decision to quit a job that must have paid less than 37K, and he hasn't recovered in a decade? I wonder what Gina's business professor would have to say about that?
Eric never appeared to be the sharpest tool in the drawer and yet this guy is the platform upon which many bloggers, build their arguments.
Eric is the bi-polar opposite to the Greg Francis character that claimed he was making 250K at Platinum. Neither were very credible and should be held more as examples of how an "expose" news piece can be sensationalised for for the purpose of rating and selling advertising, rather than an educational piece.
Would that Emerald's name be Purkiser??????
You're referring to Greg FREDRICKS, not Francis. Greg Francis is a Diamond on Larry Winters Team that went Diamond in about 5 and a half years. I think he was 30 when he qualified. Lives in the Chicago area.
Well, that could very well be true about Eric Schiebler, but what about the other information in which Quixtarisacult had stated. I had clicked on that site myself and found some pretty exhaustive research that doesn't place the Amquix Opportunity in a good light. So Eric Schiebler was the exception, he was the one who is responsible for his own downfall, okay then, please explain the results that Joe had experienced. Or how about Mike who posts on Joe's blog regularly or why on that site those negative references where stated? Why didn't I see more people even moderately succed while I was in? Why is there such a negative stereotype against the business then?
That's the point, if you have a system which produces 99% losers, than it isn't the people who are wrong, it's obviously the system which is flawed. All one has to do is look around, look on the net, talk to former IBO's. "Check the fruit on the tree." That's the issue with pointing out the flaws in the people who have failed, there are far to many for it to be simply a 'coincidence'.
Good discussion going on here.
My two cents:
At the end of the day, if this business is so above reproach, then why do none of the "leaders" respond to criticism?
You can play the moral high road, but everyone sees it for what it is....
hiding.
Rocket, I return your two cents and let you know that, in my case I have. But as I told Joe once before, while the leaders in the business know about the numerous blogs from disgruntled ex-IBO's, very few of them actually spend their time reading them or place that much significance in them.
Likewise, ex-IBO's that went on to become very successful in other walks of life, have very little time and interest in devoting any time to a blog.
The two societies that comprise the Anti-Amway blog traffic, Anti & Pro Amway pundits, are for the most part, non factors in their own perspective professions.
And that goes for the IBO's that get on these sites and scream "loser", "get a life", "You'll work for me one day" and other nonsense such as "I'm rich and you're not"
This business, as any business, has it's flaws but then again so does any company.
On another note, you might be right about Lonnie Purkiser. He seems to have become an enigma in the LTD system and there is little if any mention of his name any more, even though he is still around and has a huge downline.
Anonymous, thanks for your thoughtful comments. I have an issue with this one though:
"This business, as any business, has it's flaws but then again so does any company."
I believe the Amway opportunity actually has much more flaws than most other businesses and the overall success of IBOs as a whole, would indicate that I am correct.
So one person mentions Eric Schiebler and he is the poster child? Attention deficit much?
Who mentored Eric to quit his job? Who kept insisting that he had made it and that the money would come? Come on now...not even you can believe the utter BS spewing from your mouth. You people rant about duplication, edify upline, b;ah blah blah, so now that you wish to use information to your supposed advantage this particular IBO didn't do as he was told? You IBO's have a serious responsibility problem. It is always someone elses fault and always a justification...teenagers are better composed.
Why not address the questions I posed? My business professor would say that by not addressing them you are in fact trying to avoid the truth...being that you are no different than any other IBO. You are not honest and transparent, you do not run your so-called business as such and you do not encourage or teach your downline to treat their businesses as businesses either. O wait no professor would need to tell you that...its logical, so anyone, other than IBO's can tell you that.
Gina, wow you are a peice of work. I would like to write a blog on you and your views and issues on this topic and i would hope you might stop by and visit us so you can enlighten us on this whole P/L issue and how you believe all of us in Amway are labeled bad and deceptive liars.
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